How Ableism Sneaks Into Health Campaigns—and What to Do Instead

Sara Payne [00:00:10]:

Welcome back to the Health Marketing Collective, where strong leadership meets marketing excellence. I'm your host, Sara Payne, and I'm bringing you fascinating conversations with some of the industry's top marketing minds. Today, we're talking about something that doesn't get nearly enough attention, how advertising and marketing can unintentionally reinforce ableism even in campaigns that aim to be inclusive. My guest today is Kelsey Lindell, founder of Misfit Media. Kelsey works with brands across health, wellness, and social impact to help them do better when it comes to disability representation and inclusive messaging. Her team is behind an incredible new workshop series designed specifically for health care brand and marketing leaders. But the conversation today isn't just about the workshop. It's about the broader topic of how we rebuild trust with audiences who've often been overlooked, misunderstood, or harmed by the language that we use in health care.

Sara Payne [00:01:06]:

So let's get into it. Kelsey, I'm so glad to have you here.

Kelsey Lindell [00:01:10]:

I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Sara Payne [00:01:12]:

Yes. Thank you for being here. Before we get into the heart of the topic on inclusive messaging, can you tell us a little bit about what inspired you to start in this work?

Kelsey Lindell [00:01:24]:

Sure. So, I first of all, I'm disabled. I was born missing part of my left arm, so you can't really see it right now. But my left arm is shorter than my right, and I'm missing some fingers. But I'm what I call a quadruple threat, the EGOT of disability, if you will. So I have three invisible disabilities that you can't see. So I have internal experience in this, but I also lived in South Africa for over four years working with children with disabilities and organizations that support them on the ground. And I saw some of the worst human rights and civil rights violations you could ever imagine that you, you know, kind of only think of in, like like, almost like a horror movie or, like, really just horrible circumstances that we're actually seeing as real possibilities in The States again.

Kelsey Lindell [00:02:06]:

Things like institutionalizations and shunning people from society and not being allowed to participate in your everyday community, simply because people are disabled. And so I asked communities that I was working with on the ground, if I could do one thing with my life to impact this as big as possible, what would it be? And for four years straight, everyone told me go back to The States and change the way that, disabled people are viewed. Work in marketing, work in advertising, work in entertainment because what we see shown to us impacts the entire scale. And we know that what we see shapes our bias, which impacts how we vote and how we spend our money and who we hire and who we don't hire and how we, you know, structure schooling. So, really, if we can start to change some of the sentiments surrounding disability, all of the other things have a chance to move and shift. So that's how I started doing this work, and I've been doing it ever since.

Sara Payne [00:02:55]:

Wow. Well, thank you so much for sharing your the personal side of that, as well as sort of that inspiration, because I think it's not only relevant to your career pathway and your business and how you got into doing what you do, but relevant to all of our listeners as well in terms of really thinking about the importance of the work that we do in terms of making sure everybody feels like they're part of the conversation. So thank you so much for sharing that. So your workshop is called shaping perception, and I really love that, Remaine. Can you talk about how you just started to get into it a little bit there. How advertising shapes how we think about disability and where you see, where you most often see ableist narratives, sneak in even with good intentions.

Kelsey Lindell [00:03:49]:

Yeah. So shaping perceptions is, like, kind of like our one on one foundational workshop. Right? It's our basic basics. Here's what every creative or marketer or anybody who shapes public perception needs to know. I always say, I don't care if you're an intern or if you're the CEO. You have to come hang up with us for at least ninety minutes because you just don't know what you don't know. So Yes. It's like our, you know, one zero one basics, and we have a lot of fun with it.

Kelsey Lindell [00:04:12]:

I don't do things that aren't fun. Disability is such an uncomfortable topic for so many people because when we're talking about disability, we're also automatically talking about frailty and aging and ultimately death. Right? So people are really uncomfortable with it because all of us will become disabled if we are lucky enough to enter into old age. My grandfather just passed, and he went his whole life without identifying as disabled. But at the end of his life, he absolutely was. And watching him cope with that towards the end of his life was really painful, and it was just such a, like, you know, obvious reminder to me that, like, this is so important. And if we can talk about these things openly and honestly in our much younger years and even start, like, changing people's bias, not only will it help the world, but it'll help us cope with our frailty and our morality as we age too. Right? So, the reason that we focus so much specifically on using this as a tool to inform, like, how our biases are made is because we know that advertising shapes the way people spend their money, shapes

Sara Payne [00:05:10]:

the way they think.

Kelsey Lindell [00:05:11]:

If this wasn't, we wouldn't have jobs, would we? Like, we would not be employed. Right. We're in the case. That is what we do. It is it is our job to change people's minds or make them think a certain way. And so rather than just relying on people getting it, we we look at, like, okay. Well, what are the opportunities here? We know that disabled people like, I wish everyone wanted to be inclusive and have their messaging out of the goodness of their heart, of course. But the reality is that people are busy, and they have to answer to stakeholders, not just do things because it's equitable all the time.

Kelsey Lindell [00:05:39]:

Right? I always joke that I can convince anyone that this is the right thing to do in their heart, but I can convince any butthead. I'm not gonna swear on your podcast. I can convince any butthead hater company that it matters simply looking at buying power. We know that disabled people have 13,000,000,000,000 in global spending every single year. We're twenty five percent of the population. Forty percent of American families have at least one or more person with a disability within them. And we're only represented in 1% of advertising, and Yale and the Valuable five hundred

Sara Payne [00:06:10]:

have

Kelsey Lindell [00:06:10]:

done studies that prove that 90% of that rare 1% is actually problematic and that it reinforces stereotypes, signals, and tropes that actually harm us. So when we saw this, we're like, this isn't just a equity opportunity. This is actually a business opportunity. And so taking it with Outlands means we can scale this a lot quicker in terms of impacting people and how they view disability and how their content can shape the way that others view it.

Sara Payne [00:06:34]:

Yeah. You're absolutely right that it's a business opportunity, and I I really appreciate the framing around that because, again, I think it I mean, the reality is, right, we we are we are marketers, but we are in support of business objectives. Right? And so really thinking about it in terms of business opportunity, I think, is important to help create that that prioritization of of this work and this effort for any brand. And, you you said those statistics really quickly. 20 I think you said 25% of the population and 40% of families.

Kelsey Lindell [00:07:09]:

Yeah.

Sara Payne [00:07:10]:

Those are big numbers.

Kelsey Lindell [00:07:12]:

Mhmm. And we know All of us will have somebody in our life that we love that's disabled, and if you don't, what's wrong with you? Like, we we all know somebody, like,

Sara Payne [00:07:22]:

it's a matter like you said earlier, it's it is the human condition

Kelsey Lindell [00:07:26]:

to make.

Sara Payne [00:07:27]:

Right? And and become frail or or or whatever whatever language you wanna use there. It is the human condition. Yeah. It will happen

Kelsey Lindell [00:07:36]:

Mhmm.

Sara Payne [00:07:36]:

At some point in our lives.

Kelsey Lindell [00:07:38]:

Yes. Absolutely. So coming at it from, like, a marketing perspective, especially when you're saying, like, what are some of the different, like you know, why why do we focus on problematic set whatever? Like, where do we see a lot of this? Honestly, a lot of it is within health care. So we've got our shaping perceptions workshop coming up. And when we started thinking about how do we wanna go beyond the one on one, we've done tons of training, foundational training with so many creatives. What how do we wanna dive deeper? We started to look at industry niches because what an automotive company needs to know for how they could market their cars is gonna be super different than what a pharmaceutical company needs to know,

Sara Payne [00:08:15]:

which is gonna be yeah.

Kelsey Lindell [00:08:16]:

Different than what a CPG company needs to know. And so when we're looking at all of these, we're going to focus on all of them, but I knew health care had to be first. When I was younger, I had 11 surgeries before I was six years old, and I was out of hospitals all the time. And I still am in the hospital all the time for my other chronic health conditions. Like, medical ableism is so real, and it's actually so pervasive that there's an entire framework that's been around for over thirty years that I did not create to describe how the medical industry treats people with disabilities. So we knew that especially between that and my lived experience and what we see happening in the news with RFK blaming vaccines and all of these other pseudoscience things on on, you know, causing autism, It's just such an important conversation because disabled people are being dehumanized in the news right now through our politicians and really through the medical system. So it's really important to have this conversation.

Sara Payne [00:09:11]:

Yeah. The timing is, I I agree, really important given a lot of change that's happening sort of in the national discourse. Are there specific language traps or visual tropes that, brands and and marketers should be mindful of and may not even be aware of?

Kelsey Lindell [00:09:32]:

Yeah. Sure. So, I mean, the number one question I get asked, doesn't matter if it is that intern or that CEO, the number one question I get asked is how do I respectfully refer to people with disabilities? And we have an entire ninety minute separate training on this because it is so nuanced, but there's just two things that we can give you, like, bullet points to start you off. There's two kind of, like, approved language frameworks, right, which is either identity first, so disabled person, or person first, person with a disability. And there's two different thought camps that go with each. So person with a disability, a lot of people use this. You're gonna hear this more in, like, the media, corporate language, definitely in the medical field more likely to hear this sort of framing because for I mean, for so long and still today, people view disability as a bad thing. So there are a lot of people with disabilities who would prefer to identify that way.

Kelsey Lindell [00:10:21]:

I'm a person first who happens to have this disability. My disability doesn't necessarily define me. I'm me first, and I happen to have this. Okay. No problem. The other one is identity first. So that's disabled person, and that you're gonna see more in, like, the progressive spaces, the activism spaces. It's more commonly used in The UK, which is actually way more progressive than The US in terms of disability acceptance.

Kelsey Lindell [00:10:41]:

So the more that we kinda get towards that space, I do see I predict that we're gonna see it more and more in The US. But that thought process is more like, you wouldn't say somebody with queerness, you would say that they're queer. Or you wouldn't say someone with gayness, you'd say they're gay. This is a part of me. You can't take it away from me. What? Disabled person, on the other hand, though, is think about it this way. You wouldn't say, oh, that's a person with queerness or gayness. You'd say, oh, they're queer or they're gay.

Kelsey Lindell [00:11:06]:

Right? You wouldn't say that to someone with blackness. You'd say, oh, they're black. And so that kind of framework is more like, no. You can't I am disabled, and I'm proud to be. You can't take that

Sara Payne [00:11:14]:

from me.

Kelsey Lindell [00:11:16]:

And so that's kind of that thought process. Now within the disability community, you will find people who use euphemisms to describe themselves, and that is their personal preference. So I like to think of this like pronouns. It is not my business or your business to tell somebody else how they should identify. Right? Yeah. That said, within the disability community, when we use euphemisms like special needs, differently abled, it does a couple different things. The first is it increases stigma. There have been sociology studies that prove that when we use euphemisms for disability instead of either person first or identity first phrasing, stigma and, like, pity towards disabled people actually increases by 60%.

Kelsey Lindell [00:11:58]:

So oftentimes, people use these euphemisms because they're trying to be respectful because they want to show that they value people with disabilities. They don't wanna say it because they think it's a dirty word. But, actually, what they're doing is the opposite. They're reinforcing this belief that disability is a dirty word. And I mean, think about it. Right? What words do we avoid in life? We avoid slurs. We avoid swear words. When we avoid terms like disability, it kinda puts that on that same level.

Kelsey Lindell [00:12:21]:

Like, blonde is just a hair color unless you believe blondes are dumb. Right? So, like, that's not a slur. It's only a slur if you're using it in that way. And so helping people kinda, like, come to terms with that and understand that. And then the other thing is you're just ignoring the requests of the disability community. The disability community for over fifty years has come together and said, please use the term disability either in person first or identity first phrasing. Now, again, that doesn't mean I I always prep my clients on this. You will if you switch from saying special needs to saying person with a disability, you will get pushback because people don't know.

Kelsey Lindell [00:12:56]:

They will try to correct you because they think that they are right, and they're trying to help you be respectful. They don't know what they're talking about. Like, there is so so because people don't listen to the disability community. Right? We know that even at the height of the DEI boom, 90% of companies had a plan for DEI. Only 4% had a focus on disability within that. So people just don't know. So they are taking their uninformed, well intentioned opinions and throwing it on people, and I promise you, we have so much data and research and communities. I have said, no.

Kelsey Lindell [00:13:24]:

No.

Sara Payne [00:13:24]:

No. No. Don't do that. Yeah. Well, which is why this conversation today is so important. This is Yeah. Raising education amongst brand and marketing leaders. You know, this is not something that people maybe have a lot of access to in terms of folks like you with personal experience and having the lived experience, but also exposure to many others in this community to help define what it should look like.

Sara Payne [00:13:50]:

Yeah. Can you give us, Kelsey, an example of of a brand or a campaign that you feel really got it right? One that didn't just sort of check the box, but actually was successful in in building trust and and and connection Yeah. With the disabled community?

Kelsey Lindell [00:14:10]:

Yeah. So it's not health care. Is that okay? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yep. My favorite campaign of all time that I've ever seen is, Degrees trainers for hire, so Degrees deodorant. They did a few things. First, they looked at their product.

Kelsey Lindell [00:14:25]:

Right? And they said, okay. How can we make our product more inclusive? That's something we tell people all the time. Mhmm. If you're we've got a few different frameworks for disability inclusive marketing. Right? One is gen pop where you just include people with disabilities in your ads. That's the easiest one to do. But if you really wanna make a splash, it's a framework called narrative where you focus your entire narrative around the disability lived experience. And if you're gonna do that, we always say, do something in your company first, whether it's modifying your product or, like, for instance, Sephora, just at a quiet hour so people who have sensory sensitivities can come shop in their stores during those times.

Kelsey Lindell [00:14:56]:

That's Right?

Sara Payne [00:14:57]:

Love that.

Kelsey Lindell [00:14:57]:

Do something that actually benefits the community. So in order to do that, you have to really understand the disability community within your specific niche. So they looked at their products, and they said, cool. We're gonna make our deodorant more accessible. So they made it easier to open for people who have limb differences and arthritis, and they also added, like, Braille on some of their different products. They it's it was really cool. So then what they did, they're like, okay. Cool.

Kelsey Lindell [00:15:19]:

What are the other issues that the community is dealing with? When they looked at what other issues the community is dealing with, they realized a few different things. Loneliness and isolation, and a lot much larger percentage of the community was dealing with obesity, diabetes, and other chronic health conditions simply because fitness facilities were not accessible. So I guess it is kind of like a health facing campaign. So what they did was they worked with a handful of different organizations. They made a toolkit kind of explaining, you know, in teaching gyms and facilities how to make their spaces more accessible, how to make their spaces more inclusive, including, like, what kind of equipment they should have, how wide their entryway should be. Because we always you know, a lot of companies think if they're following the ADA that they're good, and it's like, well, the ADA is the floor. The ADA is, like Right. You're breaking the law if you don't do this.

Kelsey Lindell [00:16:14]:

That's simply not enough. Right? Like, imagine if every business just operated based on we're not breaking the law, so we're good. That's simply not a marketing strategy. You know? So, they created, like, all of these other frameworks and toolkits that gyms could use completely for free. And on that website as well, they had a list of people with disabilities who are also qualified personal trainers that gyms and individuals could hire. It's another huge issue that the disability community is facing is on and underemployment. Yes. We know that eighty percent of people with disabilities in The United States are either on or underemployed.

Kelsey Lindell [00:16:49]:

So it's it's a it's a pervasive issue. So they were able to look at some of the biggest issues that were impacting people with disabilities, look at what their brand could do organically that made sense. Right. I don't expect, and I don't push any brand to do things outside their brand values. Right? Like, look at what are your brand values, what is your brand voice, what are you known for, and how can you take that and apply it to the very real needs of people with disabilities. Right? So they did that, and then they had Beautiful Creative. So the Beautiful Creative is like the cherry on top. Right? It's it's what went out externally that got them lots of awards and got them lots of people to sign on.

Kelsey Lindell [00:17:25]:

And, basically, the entire thing was about busting bias. And, like, it showed people with disabilities going to gyms or going to dance classes or the pool and getting stared at. And so instead of, you know, being, like, this cheesy inclusive campaign, it kind of flipped the lens on society and said, like, why are you staring? They just here. Right? And so it was a really, really powerful campaign.

Sara Payne [00:17:48]:

Wow. Thank you for sharing that. And I I do think it's it is important even within health care to look up brands outside of health care, but you're right in that it sort of actually dips into that because Yeah. You know, access to to gyms and, you know, the ability for people to take care of their bodies is really important, right, to their overall health as well. So that one's a that's one that kinda goes kinda both ways.

Kelsey Lindell [00:18:15]:

Both ways. And that's why our, like, two point o workshop where we're focusing on health, it's health and wellness because

Sara Payne [00:18:20]:

they do go

Kelsey Lindell [00:18:21]:

hand in hand. I mean, one of the biggest threats to the health care industry is the wellness industry because they're running well with unregulated supplements. You know? And I don't know if you know this, but I was a personal trainer and group fitness instructor after I left. This is gonna shock you. When you go from being a social worker in South Africa to trying to work in marketing in United States, not every agency is busting down your door to leave the jobs department.

Sara Payne [00:18:44]:

I believe that. Yeah.

Kelsey Lindell [00:18:46]:

So I was a personal trainer and group fitness instructor for a while, and, I saw it. Like, it goes hand in hand. Right? And, like, I have chronic illness, and I do use a lot of, like, supplements and, you know, alternative health care simply because health care doesn't have all the answers. Right? But that doesn't mean that we should disregard health care. Health care has also saved my life. Like, you know, health care as we know it. So it they really do go hand in hand, and the same tropes appear in both. So we're doing them together.

Sara Payne [00:19:14]:

Love it. Yeah. I was gonna I was gonna touch on that. Like, what the focus on health care is really important. You touched on it earlier. Why is it particularly high stakes when it comes to disability representation?

Kelsey Lindell [00:19:32]:

Yeah. So I'm gonna actually walk you through one of the frameworks that we did not create. That's but this is the one that's had been around for a long time. So as creatives, right, we all know that the lenses that we view things through changes the way it looks. Right? If you shoot a commercial or an ad or a spot with a DSLR versus, like, a Polaroid, it's just it's gonna look different. Absolutely. And, like, the lens that we use to view disability also changes how we perceive it. So we're gonna take one analogy and run it through three different lenses.

Kelsey Lindell [00:20:03]:

The analogy is let's say that there's a person who lives in a town, a city, and that city or town only has one grocery store, and that grocery store has stairs. And this person uses a wheelchair. So the medical model would look at that and say, oh, no. That person can't get food. We should fix his legs. And the intention is good. But what it leaves out is, like, okay. Not all disabilities can be fixed or cured.

Kelsey Lindell [00:20:34]:

Not all disability not all people with disabilities want to be fixed or cured. Right. Access to those cures often is hinging on your insurance, which is hinging on your employment. And we just discussed that eight percent of people with disabilities have underemployment, and it also doesn't get them what they need in the moment, which is food. Like, even if you could do it, just the food. Right? The social model would look at that or sorry. The the charity model would look at that and say, oh, no. That's so sad that person needs food.

Kelsey Lindell [00:21:05]:

Let's get a bunch of people and carry them in there. And so maybe their immediate need would be met faster, but it also implies that there's always gonna be people who are able and willing to lift somebody into that space, and it doesn't provide them with autonomy or dignity. Whereas the social model, which is what we teach through, what disability advocates really advocate for, would look at that and say, oh, no. That person can't access food. We should build a ramp. And it's then everyone would be able to get in there. There should be a ramp there. Right? That is the model that got us the ADA.

Kelsey Lindell [00:21:36]:

That is the model that got us section five zero four, which is sinking through it in that lens of, like, it's society was built without disabled people in mind. So there was a series of laws called the ugly laws that were in they're municipal laws, and the last of them was only overturned in the nineteen seventies. And these were laws that forbade disabled people from being seen in public because they were deemed too unsightly to look at. And so people don't even know this part of our history as a country. So what happens when you don't see people is you don't build society for them. So none of our buildings, none of the society that we're living in was built for people with disabilities. And so the onus to fix that should be on the people who built it and the people who are currently building it, not disabled people who didn't ask to be excluded.

Sara Payne [00:22:20]:

%. Hundred %. If you don't see people, they become invisible to you, but they are not actually invisible.

Kelsey Lindell [00:22:28]:

Totally. And when we look at it through, like, that health care lens, like, we see this so much. Like, when we look at so much of health care marketing, it's always about, like, fixing the person. Right? So, like, I always talk about, you know, there were I needed 11 surgeries before I was six years old. I needed those surgeries. I would not be able to function and have the autonomy and independence that I do now without them. That is something that the social model could not provide for me. That was a medical need.

Kelsey Lindell [00:22:54]:

However, when I was about 12 years old, there were doctors that were really urging and pressuring me and my family to have me have a limb lengthening surgery where they would put screws in my arms. And a few times a day for anywhere between six to eighteen months, They would do a quarter turn on the screws. We'd have to do it at home, and it would break my arm if I had it.

Sara Payne [00:23:15]:

Oh my gosh.

Kelsey Lindell [00:23:16]:

So that it could be as long as my other arm. It wouldn't have given me more fingers. It wouldn't have given me more autonomy. And the doctors that suggested this were not suggesting it because they were monsters. They were suggesting it because they were viewing disability through the medical lens, and they were saying, like, let's fix her. Let's make her more easier to look at. And all it was gonna do is gonna make other people around me more comfortable looking at me. It wouldn't have helped me at all.

Kelsey Lindell [00:23:40]:

And it would have cost my parents a lot of money, and it would have cost me a lot of pain that I didn't need to go through. So, like, that's on a personal level. Right? It's like, that doctor really meant well, but they really should not have been pressuring a twelve year old to make that decision. And I said no, which I'm very glad about.

Sara Payne [00:23:59]:

Freedom.

Kelsey Lindell [00:24:00]:

Yeah. But when we look at that, like, we see this kind of language all of the time. Right? Like, when women are in their doctor's office and they find out that their baby that they're pregnant with is gonna have Down syndrome. They are told, I'm so sorry. Or, oh, it might it it'll be okay. There's resources. It's all, like, pity focused, not equity focused. Like, there still is this, like, nature of, oh, that's sad.

Kelsey Lindell [00:24:23]:

We can fix it. Or, oh, that's sad. Here's how we'll just deal with that. Not like, oh, this is a normal part of human diversity. Don't be afraid. Here are the things that we can do. You know what I mean? Like, there's just, like, doctors don't even know that. And when we look at, like, drugs or miracle cures or even, like, things like vaccines, right, one thing that was really, really frustrating throughout the whole COVID epidemic was when people would say they didn't want to have a vaccine or they wanna vaccinate their kids or anything like that.

Kelsey Lindell [00:24:49]:

You know, it got so much hysteria in 2020, because they were afraid of autism. And there are no accredited studies that prove that vaccines cause autism. There's none. Yeah. There's none. And people are so afraid of autism that they would actually forego lifesaving vaccines that are completely harmless because they are that afraid of autism because of the way that the medical world has portrayed autism as this horrible thing, that they would rather risk their lives or their children's lives. Right? We're seeing measles outbreaks all over the place because they'd rather risk their kids' life than you know, let's let's say it did have, like, a tiny chance of causing autism, which it doesn't. They still would rather risk death for their kid than risk disability.

Kelsey Lindell [00:25:36]:

So it's just like you see it in our culture all of the time simply because of the way that the medical world positions disability. And I, you know, I feel Right.

Sara Payne [00:25:44]:

Rather rather than focusing, how do we create a world that is friendlier from a neurodivergent standpoint? How do we meet our neurodivergent colleagues, friends, family members, where they're at and create a welcoming, safe environment for them to thrive versus the the the fear, the avoidance to your point, all along here in the conversation. Yeah. Such a great point. And and I think, you know, a lot of brands, health brands in particular, will focus on empowering language. Things like you've got this, you know, take control of your health, and I've heard in my work that that language doesn't always work, can sometimes backfire Yeah. With with disabled or chronically ill audiences. And this includes, by the way, people who have been diagnosed with cancer. Right? And they don't love being told you've got this, or, you know, you're a fighter, because sometimes they're like, well, you know, like, what if I don't feel strong strong right now?

Kelsey Lindell [00:27:03]:

Or what

Sara Payne [00:27:03]:

if I'm having a moment of weakness? Because I will. Because this is incredibly difficult. Don't don't just say that. Right? Because then I feel like I am weak or I'm lesser than if I'm not in that moment feeling like the fighter.

Kelsey Lindell [00:27:19]:

Totally. I know we one of, there is this commercial from Lily, and it was so good. It was so good because it was talking about basically, they were positioning themselves it was so good until the end. They were positioning themselves as, like, your ally in your fight. Basically, being like, we know this sucks. We're fighting with you, which is such smart messaging. Oh my gosh. As somebody who is bed bound for two years from chronic pain, like, I did not wanna hear you'll get better.

Kelsey Lindell [00:27:52]:

Like, oh, like, the when people would tell me I knew they meant well, but then they'd say, feel better. I wanna be like, kiss my butt. Like, what? Like, I genuinely wake up every day hoping that that, like, that was how much pain I was in. I was like, wow. Okay. Amazing. And, you know, you don't say that to your mother-in-law, but, like, it's what you think. And so when a brain's gonna come at you, you're like, I don't you clearly don't understand what I'm dealing with.

Kelsey Lindell [00:28:18]:

Right? So, like, let's say one of those commercials was a drug that could actually help me. If they were like, feel better, I would be like, you clearly don't get it, and I would not even be open to trying it. You know? Like, it wouldn't I would not go and ask my doctor about that drug. But when this Lilly commercial, it was really cool because it was, like, positioned themselves as the ally, and they killed it in the final frame. And they said, like, basically, you know, curing diseases since blah blah blah. And I was like, are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? It was so close to being, like, a no notes example of, like, what brands should do, and then it was that. So

Sara Payne [00:28:54]:

Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. And I wonder if they, to this day, even realize it.

Kelsey Lindell [00:28:59]:

Oh, probably not. Right?

Sara Payne [00:29:00]:

Yeah. Again, it's about it's about increasing our education on the perspective of the disabled community, the neurodivergent community, insert, you know, whatever here, so that we understand the power of our word choices better because we so often mean well, but we just don't know what we don't know. And I think that's why this is so important, and and the access that you're providing, through this workshop, this education you're providing, I think is is so important. Can you give us a quick overview of this two part workshop series that you're leading, and and why kinda give us the pitch why every health care marketer should, care about this or participate in this?

Kelsey Lindell [00:29:47]:

Yeah. So, basically, what we do know is that so the one on one is like I said, it is something that every single creative needs to come to. It's about thirty minutes, and, like, some of the frameworks that we went through are in there. We've got about 15 other ones that we just blast through, and I always show them, like, it's gonna feel like I'm feeding you from the viral hose, but I promise we'll send out a PDF. It'll all make sense after. Then the next thirty minutes, we watch real ads. That's always a part of our training. We always watch real ads.

Kelsey Lindell [00:30:14]:

So we group them for the, like, foundational wine based on categories. So we watch three automotive ones. We watch a few fitness wellness ones. We watch a PR like, a couple PR things. It changes every time, but those are always the ones that are definitely in there. And so we watch, like, a little cluster, and then we respond together. So I actually rarely need to do any correcting. I just like, what do you think? People will get it, quote, unquote, wrong, and that doesn't mean that, like, I am the eternal you know, I know everything.

Kelsey Lindell [00:30:44]:

But, you know, they may lead with bias, not realizing it's still kinda there. But, usually, there are other people in the room who are like, well, I actually noticed this. And it becomes more of a conversation that feels really safe. Right? Like, one of our core philosophies is we believe in creatives. I don't think anybody wakes up and says, you know what I wanna do today? Make an ad that screws over disabled people. Like, right. Who says that? Absolutely not. Right.

Kelsey Lindell [00:31:08]:

That's the reality of what's happening. Right? So we always wanna create, like, a really fine, safe space for people to get things wrong in private. And so we, like, watch and react, and then we go into a breakout session. So there's always something whether it's looking at a real brief and figuring out, like, oh, here's what we would need to change, or, oh, here's what we need to feedback the client on. Like, we just believe that, like, we don't want you to come and I mean, I can clearly, you can tell I could yap about this for as long as you'll let me, but I don't want you to come and just listen to me talk. I want you to come, learn, and leave feeling empowered. Like, if it's requiring me to tell you what to do on every single campaign, we're not gonna scale up with representation, are we, Sara? Like, right, we'll feel competent and ready to go. So that is, like, our groundwork just so that everyone can understand.

Kelsey Lindell [00:31:56]:

So we want every single creative to go to that one simply because if your mid level manager is giving you really solid feedback, but you don't understand it as the CMO or CEO, like, it's just not gonna get where it needs to go. It's not enough to have your brand manager come. It's not enough to you know what I mean?

Sara Payne [00:32:14]:

Like, you

Kelsey Lindell [00:32:15]:

gotta understand some of this yourself and see it. When we so we say everyone needs to go to that one. It's our one zero one. It's our basics. The other one is just our first two point o, right, that we're doing publicly. We do these all the time internally, but we really wanted to make this series something that anyone could come to, whether they're a company, they can bring their whole company, or just an individual who cares. Right? Like, I used to work at a fitness company in their marketing department that did not give a crap about this stuff, and I cared.

Sara Payne [00:32:44]:

So I would go

Kelsey Lindell [00:32:45]:

to my way to learn about this. Right? So I wanna I'm always thinking about, like, what would, you know, Kelsey in her early twenties need to be able to impact this kind of stuff. So I could do what I'm doing now. And so we always wanna make sure it's, like, scalable. And so the first two point o we're doing is health and health care focused and wellness focused, and that is the same thing. We're gonna look for the first thirty minutes. Look at frameworks that exist within the health and wellness spaces. We're gonna look at what are the big messages that we're seeing.

Kelsey Lindell [00:33:12]:

What is causing distrust? We're gonna look at stats. Like, sixty percent of health care and wellness professionals think that their company is extremely welcoming towards people with disabilities, but over sixty five percent of people with disabilities have avoided seeking medical care and treatment that they know they need because they are afraid of medical ableism.

Sara Payne [00:33:32]:

Like Yes.

Kelsey Lindell [00:33:33]:

There's a disconnect there. You are not getting it right. I'm a hold your hand when you say this, but you need to work on this. You know? And so being able to say, no. No. No. No. Here's what's actually happening.

Kelsey Lindell [00:33:44]:

Here are the stat stats that back that up. Here's the revenue loss you're likely seeing, and here's how we can fix it is that first segment. Then we're gonna, once again, go into watch and react. So we're gonna watch real health care companies from pharma, health tech, you know, hospitals. We'll look at all kinds of things and then react, talk about it, and then we'll break go into breakout sessions, which is more focused on, okay, what are the stereotypes, signals, and tropes that might come for this, different types of disability, how do we fix this? So that's always that's always the format is frameworks, a little bit of history, a little bit of teaching. I do stand up comedy, so I try to make them as funny as I can without being inappropriate. So inappropriate. Can't come again.

Kelsey Lindell [00:34:25]:

It's your HR. It's like, when I do these internally because we do them privately too. Like, we'll go like, you know, we do them at, like, their health calls or whatever. Right? But, like, not everyone can bring us in. And, also, what we wanna make sure is, like, it's account specific. Like we said, what a health care companies know, what a advertising agency that focuses on an insurance company, what they need to know is gonna be so different than one that focuses on, you know, granola bars. Right? So how do we make this really applicable? So that's that's the main focus there.

Sara Payne [00:34:52]:

Wonderful. Well, the the foundational session for those of you listening is now available on demand just for health marketing collective listeners. And that second part, the next live session will be on May 8. So the details for all of that and the discount code for part one of the workshop will be in the show notes. So check that out. Kelsey has very generously made that available for our listeners. Kelsey, let's bring it home with some parting advice here before we end the episode. If someone's listening right now and they're thinking, oh, no, I've definitely made some of these mistakes.

Sara Payne [00:35:23]:

What's one small shift they can make in their next campaign to really start doing better?

Kelsey Lindell [00:35:31]:

Okay. Well, first, I just I want them to know same. Like, same. Truly. I used to let myself be used as inspiration porn for fitness brands, like, before I like and that's one thing we talk about a lot too is, like, it's not enough to have a disabled person look at your campaign. There's a difference between lived experience with disabilities, so career experience and marketing. Right? There are many wonderful disabled people that I love who have really bad ideas on what good representation looks like because they don't they just don't have the lens. They don't have an idea of how it's gonna impact a brand.

Kelsey Lindell [00:36:00]:

Right? So, same. Same. I think some really good places to start would be follow disabled creatives and disabled great tours on social media and LinkedIn.

Sara Payne [00:36:13]:

Great recommendation.

Kelsey Lindell [00:36:15]:

Truly. Because they will talk about like, these the things that I just told you are, like, basics. Like, basics basics. I I joke that I could pull a Cory Booker and talk for twenty five hours straight about this stuff. Like, truly, this can is they will be sharing this stuff. They will be helping you understand it from an accessibility stance as well, intersectionality. Make and the other thing would be make sure you're not just following and listening to white disabled people. For a long time, white, disabled people have you know? And I'm a white, disabled woman, so, like, this is this is why we have Misfit Media and not Kelsey Lindell, LLC.

Kelsey Lindell [00:36:51]:

Right?

Sara Payne [00:36:52]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kelsey Lindell [00:36:52]:

Intersectionality is super important because especially when we're talking about health care, we know that medical racism exists, and we know that medical ableism exists. So if somebody's experiencing both, we need to be able to, as marketers and people with souls, understand how those layer and how we can use our privilege to combat that. Right? So make sure that you're not listening to white disabled creatives or white disabled creators. Also make sure it's intersectional. Crudges and Spice is fantastic. They're I mean, I can send you a list if that would be helpful after this.

Sara Payne [00:37:20]:

Yeah. We could put those in the show notes too. Yeah. Those are great, great recommendations. Well, like you said, we we really could talk about this all day long.

Kelsey Lindell [00:37:27]:

Yeah. Sorry. I'm a Yap Queen.

Sara Payne [00:37:29]:

Yep. Great. I just thank you so much for for the work that you're doing and the education that you're sharing, and for making this available to our listeners. So, again, for everyone listening, you can get that on demand access to Kelsey's shaping perception workshop now. Check out the show notes, and you have the opportunity to join her live for the rebuilding trust and health messaging on May 8. So, again, the link of the discount code are gonna be in the show notes. Be sure to check that out. Thanks, everyone, for for tuning in today to the health marketing collective where strong leadership meets marketing excellence because the future of health care depends on it.

Sara Payne [00:38:06]:

Thanks, Kelsey.

Kelsey Lindell [00:38:07]:

Thank you.

Sara Payne [00:38:08]:

Alright, everybody. We'll see you next time.