Healing Stigma: Marketers Leading the Charge for Inclusive Healthcare

Sara Payne [00:00:10]:

Welcome back to the Health Marketing Collective, where strong leadership meets marketing excellence. I'm your host, Sara Payne, a health marketing strategist at Inprela Communications, and I'm bringing you fascinating conversations with some of the industry's top marketing minds. Today, we're diving into a very important topic, inclusive marketing and health care. Stigma and fear often prevent people from seeking the care that they need, leading to poor health outcomes and perpetuating cycles of shame and misinformation. From substance use disorders to mental health challenges, many conditions are shrouded in stigma, causing people to hide their true experiences from their doctors and their loved ones. As marketers, I believe we have the unique power and responsibility to challenge these stigmas, drive social change, and promote a more inclusive health care system. Joining me in this conversation is an expert who's passionate about breaking down these barriers and fostering a more inclusive approach to health marketing. Our guest is Melissa Fors Shackelford, senior vice president of marketing at Let's Get Checked, where she leads global marketing strategies.

Sara Payne [00:01:20]:

Let's Get Checked is a health care solutions company that specializes in home health testing, virtual care, genetic sequencing, and medication delivery for diverse conditions. Melissa has over 25 years of experience as a health marketing executive with industry leading organizations like Optum, Hazelden Betty Ford, and Cigna's health services business, Evernorth. It's quite an impressive background. I'm honored to have you with me for this episode. Melissa, welcome.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:01:48]:

Thank you, Sara. I have been looking forward to this so much.

Sara Payne [00:01:52]:

Likewise. Like I said, such an important conversation, that I felt was really important to bring to this show and to our audience. I'd like to start by diving into some real world examples that really bring to life the impact that stigma can have on healthcare outcomes. Do you have some stories or a story that you can share with us?

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:02:15]:

Oh, absolutely. And I think because you mentioned Hazel and Betty Ford, I was in behavioral health care with substance use disorder and mental health for a long time, and I have lots of examples there. And that's really where I became so passionate about breaking down stigma. So my example I like to use is if you had a teenager who needed braces, you probably are going to do a lot of work before you get them braces. You're gonna ask your neighbors. You're gonna ask your co coworkers. You're gonna ask your cousin, who do you use for an orthodontist? You're gonna ask questions about health insurance. Was this your orthodontist? What did they have good outcomes? What was the experience for your child? All those kind of questions.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:02:55]:

But if your teenager has a substance use disorder, odds are you're not gonna talk to anyone because of that shame and stigma that you feel. You're not gonna go to the counselor at school who you probably should go to. You're not gonna talk to the teachers. You're not gonna talk to your neighbors. You're probably not gonna talk to your cousin. You're not gonna even maybe talk to your primary care physician because of that stigma. How does that reflect on me as a mother? I don't want them to treat my child differently and so I can often be preyed upon by unsavory actors. I can maybe take my child to get care at the wrong place, not get him the best care that they need.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:03:39]:

And all of that is just because of the fact that I feel so ashamed and afraid of this condition. And the more we can do to sort of break down that stigma, bring those conversations into the light from the dark, we're gonna start getting people the care that they need, the appropriate care that they need, and at the right time, and we're gonna have better informed health care consumers.

Sara Payne [00:04:04]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, it it sort of it it it hurts a little to to hear you say all of that. We but we know it to be true. Right? Like, this this is real. The stigma around many of these conditions is so real. But to think about it from the standpoint that we would be preventing ourselves or a loved one from getting the absolute best care out of fear of others judging us hurts. When we think about that on, like, a a societal level, right, that that this is this is where we are in the in the collective whole, and and this is the whole point of having this conversation today is what can we do to really change that cycle of of stigma and shame, to really have different outcomes here?

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:04:52]:

Exactly. And that's where your audience, health care marketers. As health care marketers, we can do a lot to change the dialogue. We can work really hard to break down stigma by using appropriate language, using different imagery, making sure we start to talk about these conditions, because they're health care conditions, we can talk about them in a more supportive light. And I think one of the things that's happened recently is Oprah Winfrey did a big seminar on weight loss and breaking down the stigma around obesity as a disease. And I feel like if we can do more things like that, people will get the care that they need because obesity is a disease, and there is care available. And, luckily, it's now become part of our general conversation, which, a few years back, again, that's another condition that people are often feel ashamed about. They're not gonna say, hey.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:05:49]:

I need help for this obesity as a disease. I'm not gonna necessarily find the right doctor, find the right care, find the right medication because I feel so stigmatized and so ashamed.

Sara Payne [00:06:00]:

Yeah. And I that's a great example, with Oprah and the conversation changing around obesity. And and there may be multiple factors here, but, clearly, one of the big factors influencing that was the entrance of the GLP 1 drugs to the market. Right? Everyone was talking about it. It became, you know, celebrity interest. There was a lot of celebrity interest in the drugs, and it just become became a part of the mainstream conversation. And there there tend to be big triggers like that, big moments that happened. And and another example is how COVID and social isolate isolation led us to be talking much, much more openly about mental health, depression, anxiety, and the prevalence, of those conditions and those experiences.

Sara Payne [00:06:51]:

So on the one hand, you can have a a major global event like a pandemic or the entrance of a brand new, you know, drug treatment therapy to the market. Or to your point, we could have brands and marketers sort of stepping up and leading campaigns that really drive and change conversation around this?

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:07:15]:

Yeah. A lot of it, I think, there's simple things that we as health care marketers can do. Just like obesity calling obesity a disease, not calling a person obese saying he has obesity or is a person living with obesity. Same thing for substance use disorder. Oftentimes, it's still called substance abuse, which, again, that's just such a judgmental term. If we use the appropriate medical term, which is substance use disorder, it takes all the judgment out of that. And he is not a substance abuser. He is a person with substance use disorder.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:07:50]:

Same thing around mental health. I think we've gotten pretty good, but we still have a ways to go. They're just like calling someone a schizophrenic versus someone who has schizophrenia. Think about cancer. We don't say he is cancer. We say he has cancer. And then also just as as health care communicators, we think about the language matters. Is he suffering from something, or is he living with something? So a lot of that is there's a nuance, but that's where health care marketers in particular, we can start to change the way the world talks about things.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:08:24]:

And I think that's that's a huge opportunity for us. And so, again, I applaud you for bringing this up on your, the health marketing collective.

Sara Payne [00:08:32]:

Yeah. It is such a huge opportunity because we are are raised by, you know, in in in family circles, in certain cultures to have a certain common language. And let's face it, sometimes that's not inclusive language, but we perhaps didn't know, at a point in our lives, didn't know any better. Well, now we do know better. Right? And we can we can notice ourselves when we're using language that perhaps isn't inclusive, but for sure, making sure that we've got really stringent filters on marketing and educational material to really, really lean into that judgment free language.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:09:17]:

Yeah. Exactly. And I think even with from marketers that's the language, it's also the imagery we use. We think about how do we how do we show people in different lights. We can show them in a much more positive light or a much more negative light. So again, it's how health care marketers we can shape the way people talk about health care. We can shape the way they talk about different, diseases that people are living with.

Sara Payne [00:09:43]:

Yeah. In in the interest of giving some other practical advice to marketers, you've mentioned inclusive language being really important representation within imagery in our marketing materials being really important. You had also shared with me a story, Melissa, about doing an inclusive marketing audit when you were at Hazelden Betty Ford. Can you talk a little bit about sort of, like again, I think we sort of intuitively know what that what an what an inclusive marketing audit is, but just sort of walk us through what you did as an organization and and what you learned from that.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:10:19]:

So as an organization, we had a third party coming in and helping us with our care, but we also asked them to take a look at our marketing. And I thought, oh, we're going to get an a plus plus because I believed our marketing had a lot of diversity as far as, imagery when you think about age and gender and race and people in the LGBTQIA plus community. So I thought, oh, we're gonna ace this inclusive marketing audit. But there were 2 things that, they called us out on, and I've really taken those to heart. And one was that we didn't have people enough people living with disabilities Mhmm. In our imagery. And that was something was when we think about health care and at us, the time at Hazel and Betty Ford, we were a very accessible substance use disorder treatment organization. And so, yes, we should have leaned into that.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:11:16]:

So people with living with various disabilities would want to come to an organization like ours because we were so accessible, but we weren't really illustrating that. I think maybe we had one picture of a person in a wheelchair. But that gets back to making sure we have, diversity on our marketing team so people are thinking of that. And we didn't necessarily have that much diversity. That's where having neurodiversity on your marketing team or in your collective stakeholder group, having different, physical disabilities, all these, all the different things that's where having that diversity of thought is so important. So one, we we kind of got dinged on the people living with disabilities, and secondly, we got dinged for size. And by size, I mean, we were just showing all these shiny happy models and we're showing people of different sizes. And that was really important to not just have all these, the stock photography models.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:12:18]:

And the organization that did our audit actually showed us there's other stock. If you wanna use stock imagery, there's other places you can go. You might have to pay a little bit more, but to really think about it. When we're in health care, we need to reflect everybody because everyone is a health care consumer. No matter what, they all are health care consumers. So we really need to make sure our health care marketing reflects who our audience is, which is everyone.

Sara Payne [00:12:47]:

Absolutely. I I'm really curious now if you happen to recall the resource that you use, because I think that's a it's a great tip for folks to remember the the stock imagery, resource or company that you then switched to and used.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:13:01]:

Oh, that's going way back. I cannot think of it, but I think there are there are multiple ones available. And I think, also, it's just whichever resource you're using, you can also just be very, very selective on the imagery that you choose. You can just think, well, I need to make sure I'm showing all the different forms of diversity. I'm showing age, race, gender. I'm showing people living with disabilities. I'm showing different sizes of people. LGBTQIA plus community.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:13:33]:

I mean, there's a lot of different things that to if you're very conscious from a marketing perspective, to say I want to reflect my audience, which are health care consumers.

Sara Payne [00:13:43]:

Yeah. And I it's in thing. I was just out shopping the other day with my daughter, and I will say I don't think fully inclusive imagery is yet, like, baked in the mainstream culture because I tend to note it. I tend to notice it. Like, I was at Target, and I was loving the diversity of of imagery that I was seeing just walking around, you know, from the kids section to the home section and and seeing, you know, the the faces that they were showcasing, and I was in awe of of the diversity there. But that again now I'm a marketer and I pay attention to that stuff, but again, I think it's it it it is indicative of the fact that it is not fully mainstream, that it stands out as a shining example of, wow, they seem to really be progressive. And I I hate to say that. I hate to say they are progressive for doing that, but I think that is part of the reality of where we are today as brands and marketers.

Sara Payne [00:14:49]:

Yeah.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:14:49]:

And I feel like we have even more responsibility as health care marketers. I did about, Target. I just read an article about a little boy who was at Target, a little boy who wore hearing aids, and he saw one of the models had hearing aids. It's very simple. When we think about in healthcare So simple. How hard is it for us to show I have, higher models with hearing aids. But, again, it gets back to, making sure we have diversity on our marketing teams that we're our marketing teams are made up of people, not just our marketing staff, but our broader stakeholder group, the agencies we use, all of that, that they have that kind of diversity, diversity of thought. So when they're coming from all different walks of lives, they're thinking of that.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:15:31]:

I might not think of making sure we have a little boy with wearing hearing aids, but someone else might. And so that's what's, I think, even more important in our areas of business than other areas.

Sara Payne [00:15:46]:

And such a great point you made about diversity of thought and and making sure you have that within your team, whether you you hire against that, which, yes, of course, hire against diversity of thought. But, additionally, bringing in outside consultants that really specialize in this and are gonna challenge us maybe in areas where, you know, we're we're not fully seeing that full picture. Not not with any intention. It's just perhaps an area, you know, we we might have thought we were doing excellent, but there's a couple of boxes that perhaps were left unchecked.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:16:20]:

There's some great, great resources and consultants out there, whether you're looking at inclusivity, diversity, organizations that specialize with inclusive marketing focusing on disabilities. There's lots of great resources, and that's what we need to leverage. So, we're not speaking for them. They can help us to make sure we're speaking about things in the correct way, and the way that those audiences wanna be spoken about. And, again, it's it's even more important because we're in health care, and everyone needs to be receiving health care in some way, shape, or form. If not for themselves, then for their loved ones.

Sara Payne [00:16:55]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Let's talk about, some of the areas where real progress have been made and and maybe some of the areas where that haven't benefited from much by way of progress, maybe where we, as brands and marketers, need to put more emphasis. We've talked a little bit about how really the conversation around, you know, anxiety and depression, that has really come into the front forefront. That has really changed. I think obesity is just sort of on the on the front end of of driving some meaningful change. I think there's more that needs to happen there. A couple that that I see as areas that are really untapped and need to be leaned into more heavily would be the, you know, intellectual and developmental, disabilities and also ageism, I think, is huge, that really needs to be leaned into more.

Sara Payne [00:17:48]:

What are your thoughts, Melissa? And feel free to challenge me on this too if you

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:17:52]:

see a different I just read something about older people are most often shown as living with disabilities in advertising. And so I think that just perpetuates stereotypes. So I work with an organization that is focused on senior living, and that organization has been doing a a campaign that's called that's my senior moment, and then they have a picture of someone doing a rock climbing wall. Or my senior moment is I'm kayaking. And so, they're trying to put a spin on that, and I just I love that because we we shouldn't stereotype senior seniors as being the people living with disabilities only. We should be also celebrating that people, at least in this particular campaign, that they're thriving, that they're doing rock climbing, they're kayaking, they're doing all sorts of things. So I think that's that's one of those barriers that we can work on is that we as especially, we as marketers, we can break down some of those those stereotypes, and we can be cautious about perpetuating those. So, same thing with substance use disorder and mental health.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:19:01]:

That was something, I think we always tried to think about was are we perpetuating a negative stereotype? Are we showing imagery that's perpetuating a negative stereotype? Or frankly with substance use disorder, some of the imagery you can show or some of the b roll that goes when when there's stories on the news, it's very triggering to people who may be living in recovery. We don't wanna be showing things that are triggering to them, but we also we wanna be showing the positive instead of the negative, and we don't wanna be the ones perpetuating those negative stereotypes.

Sara Payne [00:19:37]:

Absolutely. Do you have some other powerful examples of of marketing or educational campaigns that really stand out in their efforts to remove stigma or promote more inclusivity?

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:19:51]:

Yeah. I can think of 2. The first one I'll talk about is the American Lung Association, and I I have spoken about this before. I used to be on their board. It's an amazing organization. And one day at a board meeting, one of their leaders in the marketing organization came in and talked about a campaign they were doing. And the American Lung Association could do a campaign about just about anything. And what they chose to really focus on for that particular campaign was former smokers.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:20:21]:

Mhmm. And if you talk about a stigmatized group in health care, it is current or former smokers. And even when you talk about lung cancer, oftentimes people say, well, oh, he was he got lung cancer, but he was never a smoker. So that makes it okay versus if he was a smoker or a former smoker

Sara Payne [00:20:39]:

Right.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:20:39]:

Observed it. We all know that smoking is highly, highly addictive, and so it's it's something that I think we need to think twice about. What the Lung Association did is they leaned into this campaign to former smokers because they were not learning about there was a life saving scan, an early scan to do early lung detect lung cancer detection. But when people were a former smoker, oftentimes, they weren't having that conversation with their primary care provider because they're not walking and saying, oh, I used to smoke a bunch, but I quit. They're walking and saying, I don't smoke. So what the lung association was trying to do was reach these former smokers saying, hey. If you smoked, you need to ask about this this early detection scan. And the numbers were astronomical for the people that were getting the scan and the people that were finding things early stage because I think we all know the horror stories of people Yes.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:21:34]:

Finding that they have lung cancer at a late stage. Really, I just applaud, applaud, applaud the lung, association for leaning into a highly stigmatized condition and also working to save lives. But, also, they understood that these former smokers were not having these conversations with their primary care providers because they didn't wanna tell them, because they were ashamed, what have you, of of having been a smoker. And, yes, they should be applauded that they quit, but they also need to get the care that they need. So I I love that. I think it was bold. I think it was smashing stigma. They were putting their money in an area where they could really, really save lives.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:22:17]:

The other one that I love, and I'm assuming you've seen some of them, are all the wonderful work that's been happening around HIV AIDS. Yes. And I think about the pharma companies that are advertising on NFL games, on network television, and they're not showing people suffering. What they're doing is showing people living shiny, happy lives, and they're getting married, and they're they're rock climbing, and they're doing all these things, and they're targeting that audience saying, hey. We have this medication available for you. I just think those there those campaigns that are on TV those last few years are just doing so much to break down stigma, a very highly stigmatized condition. But they're saying, we're gonna throw stigma out the door. We're gonna say, show everyone that people are living these wonderful lives, and we're speaking to this audience because we do have these medications available.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:23:11]:

I just think those are 2 2 campaigns that are very visible, but also really leaning into the stigma and just throwing it out the window. And I think it helps to change what the conversation is in this country.

Sara Payne [00:23:26]:

Yeah. Very really 2 really great examples there. Thank you for sharing because I think we all need inspiration from time to time, right, of of what others are doing because I think it takes some courage sometimes to to do those things. I have one more example, that I recently came across. There is a campaign, that is called ageism is never in style. And this this campaign is to really improve the representation of of specifically midlife women and older, and their goal is to really change the narrative around aging. Now it's not specific to health care because it you know, they're also driving conversation change in the fashion and beauty industries, but I can see it having tremendously positive impacts on health care because if people of certain age groups are cast aside by society, then we won't prioritize advocating for them, innovating for their special needs. Right? Where is the specific health tech needs, you know, innovations and needs for these different age groups? So anyway, check that one out too.

Sara Payne [00:24:36]:

There's, for our listeners, there's a website with that name. They did have a podcast for a while. I'm not sure if it's still ongoing. They're also on Instagram and LinkedIn. It's called Ageism is Never in Style. And that one to me is an example of someone really, just like the the lung cancer example, really actually leaning into the stigma. Right? And saying this is a problem, and we're gonna we're gonna directly go right at it and change that conversation. So I I love that.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:25:03]:

There are so many great marketers out there changing the narrative. I I love it. I wrote that one down. I'm gonna definitely look it up.

Sara Payne [00:25:11]:

Yeah. And there's another there's another sort of factor to all of this that's very real in in my day to day world too that I I think can contribute to perpetuating stigma, and that is the reality of what gets press coverage and what doesn't. I mean, I've seen situations where journalists aren't as interested in covering certain health condition, and I believe that it's due to stigma. As an example, we have a client that's in the liver disease space. Liver disease is driven by certain lifestyle choices, and those choices are stigmatized in our society. But to your earlier point, obesity is a disease. Alcoholism is a disease. Right? Both increase the risk of liver disease, and nobody deserves to get that, especially not because they had a disease that was difficult for them to get under control because they didn't have support.

Sara Payne [00:26:08]:

So I believe I believe very strongly that the media needs to be part of, the conversation, and they can really help drive education and and change this the stigma. And yet I see stories getting passed over. So I think, again, going back to our role as brand leaders, marketing leaders, that we can help try to change that. Of course, my team is working hard to try to change the realities around this, but I think collectively, as marketers, we can put more pressure and come up with some innovative ideas to change this. I mean, what if a big brand, health insurance company or the likes of that, you know, approached someone like The New York Times or Time Magazine and and and did a recurring column that was like the health stigma column, you know, and every every month or whatever the the recurring cadence is, really dive into some of these deep seated beliefs and behaviors that really continue this cycle of stigma and really lead some efforts to change the conversation. That's that's an example of what we could do as marketers is to to bring an idea like that and put some money behind it.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:27:13]:

Yeah. I agree. I think a lot of times, you'll see the media saying, well, no one wants to hear about that. No one wants to hear about that topic. Well, Oprah did a prime time special on obesity and the GLP ones and everything that's happening there to break down stigma, talking about obesity as a disease. If, you know, Oprah did it, and people watched it.

Sara Payne [00:27:38]:

And And the ratings were pretty good from what I understand. Right?

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:27:39]:

So You could say the media doesn't wanna talk about it, but these days, they're all talking about GLP ones.

Sara Payne [00:27:45]:

Yeah. For sure. Well, I like I said, I think it takes some some courage for brands to to step up and and champion this change. But, I I believe this work is already embedded into the mission of of many health care organizations out there. And if they look within their mission, they will find the permission that they need and the opportunity to really step up and drive change. Do you have any other advice for marketing leaders who maybe, you know, want to do something or but are struggling with what to do or where to start?

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:28:16]:

I think a lot of it goes to starting off by educating yourself and your team. But then beyond that, there is a revenue implication when you're talking about inclusive marketing. I don't have any of the stats necessarily off the top of my head, but there is massive lift. We know that when you are targeting, for example, people living with disabilities. There's a lot of money in that audience as well as their from their loved ones. We know that campaigns work better when they show diverse audiences because people can see themselves and their loved ones in those campaigns. And so, I think there's also the revenue play. But beyond that, it's the right thing to do, particularly in health care as we talked about.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:29:01]:

Everyone is a health care consumer, and everyone deserves to be able to get the care that they need. And the more we can do to break down stigma, the more we can do as healthcare marketers to make sure we are inclusive, we're accessible, and that we make it easier for people to reach out their hand for help for whatever condition that they may have. We're getting people the care that they need, and that's what we're about. That's why people are drawn to health care marketing versus other industries.

Sara Payne [00:29:34]:

Absolutely. Great point. Well, great advice there, Melissa. Thank you for sharing that. Hopefully, we're will inspire some folks to do do some things differently. And and I love your point about the business case because, you know, the reality is we have to, many cases, follow the the money on these things. But to your point, I think if they dig if they dig in, they'll find the evidence to prove that, in fact, there is business opportunity around any of these areas. Alright.

Sara Payne [00:30:03]:

Well, I'd like to switch gears for our quick fire segment. I've got 5 questions for you, Melissa. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:30:12]:

I'm gonna say ask for help. Oh. And I think not enough of us ask for help or are willing to admit that we need to ask for help, but you have to have an ounce of humility to say you can't do it all yourself. But I think for me, asking for help over and over and over has been one of the the best things people have ever suggested to me. And I tell you, I'm surprised over and over at the people that are willing to lend a hand when asked.

Sara Payne [00:30:38]:

So true. So true. What's more important to you, short term results or long term investment in the brand?

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:30:45]:

So that's a toughie. I have to say, and I I I've watched a bunch of your podcasts. I have to say both. I think you can't sacrifice one for the other, but that's sort of the age old argument about marketing and marketing budgets. Do you focus on the short term? Do you focus on the la long term? But you can't really mortgage your future by, sacrificing it. So I'll say both.

Sara Payne [00:31:07]:

True. Yeah. I know. Trick question. One thing I didn't mention when I introduced you is that you serve on the board of the Women's Health Leadership Trust, which is a fantastic organization. And I know you are a strong advocate for female leadership in our industry. I wanted to put you on the spot and have you name some female leaders that you personally look up to or are inspired by.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:31:33]:

Wow. That's that's great. And I will I can start with some of the women in the trust. I tell you, especially for people who are located I know you've got listeners everywhere, but located in Minnesota or or surrounding Minnesota, the Women's Health Leadership Trust is a great organization. It's really focused on all women in health care and networking, amongst them because we need to all support each other and introduce each other to to contacts. So within the trust, I will name our last president, our current president, and our next president. So our last president was a woman named Kim Perry. Kim Perry is with an organization now focused on kind of the the cutting edge of health care called Intelligent.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:32:17]:

Kim has just been just a wonderful mentor and friend, and she really is on the cutting edge of health care. Our current president of the trust is doctor Lisa Salls. So she is at UnitedHealthcare and making great change at UnitedHealthcare especially in maternal health. And our incoming president for next year is Joy King And Joy is at NMDP Be The Match, and that's really the National Bone Marrow Donor, Registry, and they are changing the world. So she is another just visionary health care leader. So I will name those 3 just off the top of my head, but they are also 3 amazing leaders that we're lucky to have with the Women's Health Leadership Trust.

Sara Payne [00:33:00]:

Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. And I know

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:33:02]:

I'm sorry. Giving me that opportunity,

Sara Payne [00:33:04]:

and I appreciate it. Could do 2 hours worth of mentioning women that are inspiring leaders in this industry. So thank you for, being being willing to go there with me. I kinda put you on the spot there and really was kind of only limited to 3. But, next question is how do you stay current on trends and your own professional development? Do you have some go to resources?

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:33:27]:

I will tell you 2 events I really, like to go to. One organization is the SHUSHMID Connections Conference. And SHUSHMID is part of the American Hospital Association. It is their society for health care strategy and market development. And it's mostly health care systems that are part of that, but it's really a great organization. They have lots of virtual events and trainings throughout the year, but in the fall every year, they do a large event that I just think I've learned so much about what's happening in other health systems. This year, I'm lucky enough to be on an inclusive marketing panel there. Really, just an opportunity to learn what's happening in healthcare.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:34:10]:

And then the other one would be, there's an event, through HMPS. It's the Forum for Healthcare Strategists. That one is in the spring, but, again, it's a slightly smaller, very senior organization, and they also it's an opportunity to hear about what's happening and cutting edge, particularly in, with a lot of healthcare systems. Excellent. A few organizations and events that I really learn a lot from personally.

Sara Payne [00:34:38]:

Thank you for sharing those because I I don't hear those come up very frequently, in my world. And I I consider myself to be fairly well connected to what's going on in health. So thank you for sharing those. They sound like excellent resources for folks to check out. Last question. What's the best podcast episode or book on leadership or marketing that you've consumed recently?

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:35:00]:

So on marketing, I will kind of can I pivot this a little bit to just do leadership? Because I've got Absolutely. 2 that I love, and I just would love to share with you. So one is one that I gift more than any other book. It's called How Remarkable Women Lead, and it's, I just can't say enough about it. It's featuring all sorts of women across all different walks of life, and it's I feel like I've I've shared it so many times with people. And the other one is a newer book by Ellen Toff, and it's called The Mirrored Door. And, again, it's targeted at women leaders. But she's saying oftentimes it isn't the glass ceiling, but it's the mirror door right in front of us that is often the problem for women leaders.

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:35:45]:

So those are 2, I think, that for me, and for those in my network have been very useful. And I just keep sharing them again and again. And there's a reason for that because they're just such great resources.

Sara Payne [00:35:59]:

Awesome. Well, I am definitely going to be putting how remarkable women lead into my cart and checking that one out, putting it on my reading list for sure. Melissa, this was such a pleasure. Thank you for being here today. Such an important conversation. How can our listeners get in touch with you?

Melissa Fors Shackelford [00:36:18]:

LinkedIn is the best way. Melissa Fors Shackleford on LinkedIn. I love to connect with people, so please reach out. Let's connect.

Sara Payne [00:36:27]:

That's it for today's episode. If you enjoyed the conversation today, do us a favor and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for being part of the Health Marketing Collective, where strong leadership meets excellence, because the future of healthcare depends on it. We'll see you next time.