A Reckoning on Trust in Healthcare

Sara Payne [00:00:10]:

Welcome back to the Health Marketing Collective. I'm your host, Sara Payne, and I'm bringing you fascinating conversations industry's top marketing minds. Today, we're tackling a deeply sensitive issue, the tragic killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO and what it reflects about the trust in healthcare. First, I wanna extend my deepest condolences to the family, friends, and colleagues of Brian Thompson. This episode isn't about speculation, but reflection. Trust in institutions, health care, government, business is eroding, and this tragedy compels us to step back and reflect. What's happening in our culture and in our industry that brings us to this moment? And most importantly, how do we move forward? For marketing leaders, this is personal. We navigate corporate priorities while being patients ourselves, parents, and caregivers.

Sara Payne [00:01:06]:

Joining me to explore how we move forward is Jon Austin, a veteran consultant in crisis and issues management. Jon, there's no one better to guide us through this conversation today. Thanks so much for being here.

Jon Austin [00:01:19]:

Well, thanks for having me, Sara. Probably no one better who's available, but I'll I'll I'll take the compliment anyway. So it lovely to be with you, and I I just wanna echo it. This is we're we're here to talk about a tragic situation, and we wanna do that with respect, and we wanna do it with dignity, and we wanna do it, without causing any more pain than already exists around the situation. So with that as a as a caveat, let's let's just try to frame the discussion and see where we go.

Sara Payne [00:01:46]:

Yeah. Well said. We're gonna we're gonna do our best to approach this with with care and humility. The health care industry is uniquely positioned at the intersection of people's health, finances, and emotions. So when trust is absent in the equation, the stakes really couldn't be higher. So, Jon, let's let's start by talking about some solutions here. As marketers and leaders in health care, how do we go about rebuilding trust?

Jon Austin [00:02:19]:

Well, I think I think you have to recognize, that it's it's a relationship that you have not just a series of transactions with your customers and and with your your members, you have a relationship. And and relationships come with a different set of expectations than transactions. A transaction is is a drive through experience. Right? And if Mhmm. If you have an unsatisfying drive through experience, well, that's that's a momentary disorient. If you have an unsatisfying relationship, particularly as as you said, a relationship that is so much at the core of of people's lives, and and there is very little that's more central to people's lives than their health care and and their health. And and especially if it's their children's health, then you can add a a magnifying factor to that. You really I think the first thing is is look at, you know, are we treating this like the relationship our members expect us to do, our constituencies expect us to? And are we organized to deliver on that service? Because I I I met a lot of people in this space, a lot of health care, professionals all the way from from providers to payers to to, device manufacturing, thing like that.

Jon Austin [00:03:33]:

And and almost to a person, I can tell you, they care. They care about what they're doing. For some of these folks, it's a calling. And so it's not it's not a lack of care. It's not that there people are insensitive. It's how do we deliver a valuable scarce commodity because they're they're you know, it is a commodity that and do it in a way that respects the relationship. So I think that's the I think that's the starting point.

Sara Payne [00:03:59]:

Yeah. I I agree with you. And, you know, we were talking we were prepping for this conversation and really talking about that it's moments like this where there's opportunities to really make a difference and make sure that we're saying something that that truly matters and sort of leaning leaning into that stepping into that conversation. Right? There is there is distrust. There is some pain that's out there. And I think as brands, as companies, as marketing leaders, we have to step into that. We have to be willing to step into that and give people the information that they're looking for.

Jon Austin [00:04:41]:

That that's exactly right. And and I I'll just widen the frame just a a a little bit for a minute beyond health care. I get called in on a fair number of of what are legitimate crisis situations. They are the awful things that you pray never happen. They they provide no benefit. They have no they have nothing about them. They're the things you never want to keep you up at night. And yet they happen.

Jon Austin [00:05:08]:

They happen in every every business, and industry in America experiences those events sooner or later. And what I what I tell people when I when I come to them, is that within that awful terrible moment, there is an awful terrible opportunity. Because at that moment, your constituents, your employees, your members, your your business partners, you know, the entire constellation of people who care about your organization, they are paying attention to you like never before. Like like, as marketers, you wish you had as much of their attention. Well, in in an in an awful, terrible, unwelcome way, you do have it right now. And so part of the process of responding to a crisis is we have their attention. What do we wanna tell them? What do we want them to know about us? What do we want them to know about this moment? What do we what do we want them to know about what we're going to do with this moment from Ford? Because even the most awful terrible moment will pass and that attention will start to turn back to normal. But right now, right there, everybody's paying attention and they really, really wanna know, wanna hear from you.

Jon Austin [00:06:20]:

So, you know, sometimes you can't seize that moment, but it's there.

Sara Payne [00:06:26]:

I is that is so well said. Such an important point. I think people would would do themselves, a favor to to actually roll that back and listen again because I think that cannot be, underscored enough in terms of the the importance of that and really stepping into that moment and saying the things that people really do need to hear. And, especially right now because there's a lot of fear, amongst, rightfully so

Jon Austin [00:06:54]:

Yes.

Sara Payne [00:06:55]:

Corporate leaders, corporate executives, rightfully so, there is some fear about their own safety and security. And, obviously, there that's that is an important thing to make sure is taken care of, but we cannot let that fear prevent us from stepping into this moment and providing the information in a very transparent way that people are looking for. You know, tell me what I want to know. Talk to me. Help me understand better what's going on here. I I think we cannot let that fear prevent us from stepping into the moment.

Jon Austin [00:07:32]:

And and I I think worth acknowledging, I suspect most of your audience knows that on a very personal level. I suspect if you're listening to this or watching this podcast, you work in health care marketing, perhaps. And, you you know, for you, the last couple of weeks have been personal that way as well. It's it's hard. It's a very hard thing. It's a very natural thing to feel. And and it is it is paralyzing. I mean, we are we are evolved from, a species that has the the fight or flight instinct baked into us.

Jon Austin [00:08:07]:

And and even though we've come a long way from, you know, the the Savannah and and tribes of one another battling over the waterhole, that fear of flight fear or fight instinct still kicks in in moments like this. And it's it it saps your intellect. It saps your ability to think rationally because all your body is telling you is get away. Get away or fight or whatever. And and you have to have, as part of your sort of coping mechanisms, a way to to ride that out. Because it it will it will it will calm down and it will it will your intellect will come back. But, boy, in those first few minutes, it can feel like the most awful thing ever.

Sara Payne [00:08:52]:

Which is why having crisis plans in place and templates and the work that you do to prepare organizations and brands for these moments is so incredibly important

Jon Austin [00:09:03]:

Yeah.

Sara Payne [00:09:03]:

To have that that that safety net, that security, that that lifesaver, whatever you wanna call it as the metaphor here to help you get through those moments when when you're still in shock and your mind is unable to really focus on the what to do.

Jon Austin [00:09:20]:

Absolute that that is that is absolutely a key. If there's one predictor in my experience of how an organization is gonna come through an event like that, it is how well did they plan for it, How how much effort did they put into creating a plan? How much effort did they put into keeping it up to date? How much effort did they put into practicing it? The more that answer is more, the more likely it is they're they're gonna be able to do that because it is it is paralyzing. And some of these plans, we literally put at the bottom of each page, turn the page because we don't want to make people have to even even think about that one. We want them to do it until that that, you know, like, comes up. And there's a there's a momentum to it. Right? If you can do the first three things on your checklist, the 4th thing's a little bit easier. Yeah. And then yeah.

Jon Austin [00:10:09]:

And so and then and then again, your your intellect comes back and you start to be that person you are 99.9% of the time.

Sara Payne [00:10:17]:

Absolutely. Again, as we go back to talking about how do we rebuild trust as an industry, something collectively we all need to own and as marketing leaders need to own. There are few things I wanted to to point out that I think are important. We've touched a little bit on it. Transparency, I think, is incredibly important. Being upfront as much as we can about costs, coverages, limitations. People understand the system we have is complex, and we don't always have all the answers. Therefore, people don't expect it to be perfect, but they do expect honesty and transparency.

Sara Payne [00:11:00]:

And so when the answer is we don't know, we have to say we don't know. Right? And not let it be, sort of, give appearance of sort of being being hidden or or getting a runaround type of type of answer or response. I also think we really need to focus, and and and sharpen a bit around a patient centric view of everything we do. Business decisions, marketing messages. Right? So I yes. It's important in your communications and your marketing materials to be thinking about things from a patient centric lens, but broadening that out to business decisions as well. Shift the focus from what works for the system to what works for the patient. And the more that we can really prioritize those needs and communicate against those needs, I believe the more trust that we'll earn.

Jon Austin [00:11:55]:

I agree a 100%. Go back to the the the difference between relationships and transactions we were talking about at the beginning. The patient should be at the center. The the member should be at the center of that relationship. And the framing is what does the pay what does the member need to know? What's important to the member? How do I get that information to them so that when they need to make a decision, when they need to, get questions to, answers to questions that have become urgent all of a sudden, they they have a network around. They have a relationship around them that is built to provide those answers and support them. And and it's I think you you touched on this. There are few industries in the world that, are more complicated than the health care system in the United States.

Jon Austin [00:12:44]:

How we create and deliver health care in the United States is enormously complicated. It's mostly unplanned. It's it's mostly a product of decisions that were made for a specific issue, years ago and now have become sort of embedded in in, basically, the industry. But it's just incredibly confusing. And when somebody has to walk into that relationship and be expected to navigate it as a member, it it can be it can be overwhelming. And so I think to your point about building trust and and and how do we improve trust, that's another way you can do it is, you know, not only is it a relationship, but it's a patient member centric relationship.

Sara Payne [00:13:31]:

Absolutely. Another thing that really stood out to me, Jon, when we were prepping for this conversation, you said something that this particular event has really touched a nerve in our society. And I wondered if you could elaborate on that point a little bit.

Jon Austin [00:13:52]:

Yeah. You know, I I think and, again, I I wanna be very respectful and I wanna be very cognizant of the fact that so much has been said about this already. But I think it's really, really important that we not lose sight that the heart of this event is a a young man who has become so radicalized and so so twisted around, the delivery of health care. And and I don't pretend to know his story and and how that happened, but he has become radicalized to the point where his response to that is to stalk and assassinate the largest the CEO of the largest provider of of health insurance in the country. And that says something that's really important, and and even important beyond the tragedy that's at the heart of that. And and we have to pay attention to that because it says something about how the industry is perceived in society. And and, again, widen the frame a little bit. You know, it's not just his his action.

Jon Austin [00:15:05]:

It's how a significant may, percentage of the population is reacting to it as well. I Yes. I've I've been doing this a a long time as as your viewers can tell. I have not, I've not just come to this work. And this is the first time I've seen an event like this where there are people actively, visibly showing their face on camera cheering this on. They're they're they're applauding. They're sympathizing. They're they're expressing, admiration.

Jon Austin [00:15:39]:

I mean, it's it's incredible. Now you you said something after the the front that that should also frame it. This is happening in a context of of eroding trust in all sorts of institutions. Right? So there is a there is a larger societal issue in there. But it says something to me that, about this industry in particular that it that that radicalization happened here and that response happened here. You know, I think that's significant and not something we should lose sight of.

Sara Payne [00:16:11]:

Yeah. I agree. I mean, there's definitely sort of a a broader context to highlights a larger cultural issue, just the growing distrust in institutions over overall in government and media, in addition to health care. You know, it is a cultural moment where people are questioning who they can trust. So again, I think that that is an important point of reference, the political landscape, the polarization, the erosion of trust, is important as we think about how to navigate trust and and reputations overall moving forward.

Jon Austin [00:16:46]:

Right. And and and some of the traditional ways people decided how much trust to extend to an organization, those 2 are challenged. Right? It it used used to be, that that the media was held in in fairly high regard as sort of the arbiter of what's really going on

Sara Payne [00:17:06]:

Right.

Jon Austin [00:17:07]:

In this country. Right? I I grew up in that model where, you know, if it was in the paper, you know, it was generally, mostly evenhanded, but it was, you know, the reporter's best shot at telling you, here's what's really going on. Well, now not only is that trust eroded, but the media has fragmented so much that you literally can pick your own your own news. You can pick your own interpretation of the news, and you can feel informed inside that choice. Even though somebody else might look at at your choices and go, you have no idea. But they're in they're also in a bubble too. So so how do you how do you bridge that how do you bridge that, how do you create trust there with when you have 2 people who may not even agree on on what day it is. Right? The the the the it's it's it's a real challenge for communicators, but it's it's also a reality too.

Jon Austin [00:18:06]:

It's not not something you can ignore. How do you how do you become that trusted, source for information? Again, I think it goes back to something you you touched on. It's by making that member centric relationship, important and then walking that talk. And you you you can't just say it. You have to do it.

Sara Payne [00:18:26]:

Yeah. This is, reminding me, of the recent episode we did with Paul Ratzky of Edelman, where we explored insights from the 2024 Edelman Healthcare Trust Barometer. So they do the overall Edelman Trust Barometer, and then they do industry specific around health care. And there's just a ton of great insights in that episode with Paul. I encourage listeners, if you haven't already dug into that episode, go back, take a listen. There's a lot, I think, that's relevant and and applied within the current reality. I do recall one of the key findings was, as we've been talking about, trust in major institutions has not only eroded, but it has gone to the level where we've now fallen into distrust levels. And, you know, to your point, Jon, about sort of trust in information that's coming from the media, they Edelman found that the decline in trust is compounded by a misinformation problem, where contradictory medical information and changing recommendations really leave people sort of questioning motives, questioning what's what what's right here, this or that.

Sara Payne [00:19:39]:

Right? Like, I'm hearing 2 different sides, so which is which is the truth here. And another critical insight that that came out of that report and conversation was the correlation between trust and empowerment. So individuals who feel empowered to make informed healthcare decisions experience better outcomes. And that alone as a finding really highlights, as we talked about earlier, the need for transparency and clear communication within our healthcare marketing. So again, just wanna refer back to that episode. Take a listen. Paul and Edelman had a lot of valuable insights to share.

Jon Austin [00:20:22]:

And and and I am so grateful for the Edelman folks for doing that survey because they've been doing it for 25 years. Yeah. And and so not only does each year, produce insights that are worth paying attention to, but you can look back over it historically, and you can see trends, some which that that that are speaking exactly to what we're talking about here.

Sara Payne [00:20:47]:

Absolutely. Yeah. I think the trend lines are really important to to take a look at as well, not just the snapshot in time time as you said. You you also brought up the point, about the role that that insurers play in the industry. And and we know that that trust there has been fragile, and it's it's it's understandable to an extent. Right? There's a bit of a perception gap there. In our system today, patients can feel like they're fighting for care, in a in a system that they believe exists to support them. Right? And so when we think about denied claims or, surprise medical bills, right, even when you're insured, it's it is those moments that that are that are real, and they're part of the structure that actually happened.

Sara Payne [00:21:39]:

But it is in those moments when trust can be further eroded and and leave people feeling a bit powerless, as it may be. So, I'm just wondering if you have any sort of additional thoughts on rebuilding trust, you know, any additional steps that you feel folks can take and and, you know again, I don't believe this is about 1 person, 1 company, or 1 stakeholder group, but I do think it is important to call out the critical role that insurance companies do play within our system.

Jon Austin [00:22:12]:

Yes. And and I'm I'll go back to to a word you've used several times. It starts with transparency and clear communications at the front end of the relationship and then all the way through. I I think a lot of times, you know, I see a lot of communications in this space and then in in other spaces as well too that are written from a maybe maybe a legal per perspective is unfair. But that's, I think, how a lot of people read it. They read it and they say, wow. This is a lot of legally gumbity gunk. And it's not that thing we were talking about.

Jon Austin [00:22:50]:

It's not it doesn't tell the the the member what they need to know. It's not clear to them unless they happen to be a a health care attorney. And it it is, I think the overall impression is that sometimes it'll take away trust because they may not understand it, but they're sure some lawyer wrote it, And and it's designed to, you know, cover the company, in in certain situations. So right from the very beginning, you're you're, I think, setting that expectation that, you know, you may not be able to trust these folks as much as you know as you think you can when it really matters. Right? Because, you know, the the this sounds like a lot of here's here's what we won't do kinda words. And I think I think that it it really underscores the important role that communicators can play, professional communicators can play in taking that that language, which is important language because you you have to be clear. Here's what we will and won't do in in our relationship, but put it in language that is accessible and transparent, to those members who aren't lawyers, who who aren't spending their time, reading their their, end user license agreements in their software. They just wanna say, when I really need you, I just know you're gonna be there.

Jon Austin [00:24:18]:

And I know and and if you're if there's sometimes you can't be there, I wanna know that too. And and I think I think that's an achievable goal, especially if you look at this less as a as a legal communication and more as a relationship communication between parties you're trying to establish trust with.

Sara Payne [00:24:39]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Human speak to me like a human. Right? Don't speak to me like, right, a legal team. Obviously, we've gotta make sure we're checking all of those boxes and and protecting the organization, but really try to humanize that language human to human.

Jon Austin [00:24:59]:

I think you know? And, again, I'm this is what I do for a living. It's what you do for a living. I think you can be both human and precise. I think you can you can communicate to folks. Here's what this is in a way that they go, I get it. Okay. Thank you. I understand that.

Jon Austin [00:25:17]:

And still have the level of precision you need so that that it it doesn't create that ambiguity that keeps the attorneys up at night.

Sara Payne [00:25:25]:

Yeah. I totally agree with that. I think we need to push ourselves in the industry to do a much better job of that. And it's okay if the message isn't necessarily what people want to hear, if it's the truth and we're delivering it in a very empathetic way, gosh, I would take the truth, the direct truth, even if it's not what I wanna hear over over a runaround any day. Right.

Jon Austin [00:25:49]:

Any day. I I I agree a 100%. People can deal with bad news as long as they understand what the bad news is, and they have enough information then to make an informed decision about what to do about that. Okay. You're telling me this. I understand this. So now I know that if this happens, here's what I'm going to do about that. Or you know what? I now I understand that that this choice I was about to make doesn't work for me.

Jon Austin [00:26:18]:

Is there another another product, another type of coverage that will work better? Because here's my problem. And and and, again, it's it's an interesting thing about communications, I I find, having done this for so long. People take it for granted in the same way that they take for granted that the electricity comes out of the plug and the water comes out of the tap. Sure. You know, once it's it's almost like once the policy or the or the decision is made, they just say, well, it'll get communicated. And it's it's in some ways, it's the most important part of communicating that decision or that policy is the most important part of of the whole process. Because if you don't communicate it very well, you're you're certainly not putting your members first and you're certainly not helping your company because all you're doing is setting yourself up for a series of those apocryphal, anecdotal, awful moments. And and we all have, right, about about health care coverage and things like that.

Jon Austin [00:27:25]:

We've all heard of the friend, who heard of a friend, who had a sister who did this. Right? They those are out there. We set ourselves up for that as as, insurance providers when we don't communicate clearly, I think. We just we make them inevitable.

Sara Payne [00:27:40]:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. A few kind of, more quick fire type questions for you here, Jon, before we wrap. What would you say is one of the most important questions health care marketers should be asking themselves right now?

Jon Austin [00:27:57]:

I think they should be I think they should be asking themselves, what does this mean for my members? I think they should that first step towards putting those those members first, ask yourself that. Not what do we need to tell them, what do we want them to know, what do they need to hear. I think if you if you start your your conversation or your thought exercise from that, that's a good beginning.

Sara Payne [00:28:21]:

I love that. And and, you know, I think it's something we all know, but I think we have to remind ourselves on a frequent basis, and this is that that wake up call. It's the it's the outside in. Right? Not to your point. It's worth underscoring. Not what we want to say, but what they want and need to hear.

Jon Austin [00:28:41]:

Exactly right.

Sara Payne [00:28:42]:

For folks listening, what's what's one thing they can do starting tomorrow to help rebuild trust, not just only for their organization, but for the industry as a whole?

Jon Austin [00:28:56]:

Well, I I think again, to go back to those anecdote, you said, that we all have and and it, you know, I would like and I'm not just being plain to your audience here. I would like to hear more anecdotes of when the system works, when the system made a difference in somebody's life, in a way that that is meaningful. I you know, again, bad news bad news often leads the news, right, there for a reason, but there's a place for the good news stories too there. And and I think all of your your audience will know. This industry does a lot of good. It does. It makes it possible for people who wouldn't get access to quality care to have access to that quality care and make, you know, not only, changes in their quality of life, to literally save their lives. Sometimes that's, again, it's not a high priority because there's always something urgent.

Jon Austin [00:29:53]:

But, boy, I sure would like to see more of those.

Sara Payne [00:29:56]:

Yeah. I I think that's such a great point that we need to talk about our commitments on a broad level, but we need to also show progress against that. Right? Like, even if it's this one one thing that happened over here, that made a difference, that made an impact for that one person, and it's and it is a shining example of living up to the commitment that you've made as a brand, as an organization. And it gives us all hope that that could be my experience too. Right? We're we're we're moving toward a a reality where that experience they had over here could be mine too.

Jon Austin [00:30:35]:

Right. And and and remember, you know, like like all communications, right, it gets consumed by different constituencies. Right? So so those good news stories aren't just for the benefit of members. Like, here's how good we are. They're for the people working in this industry as well too

Sara Payne [00:30:49]:

Yes.

Jon Austin [00:30:50]:

Who sometimes need to be reminded the work they're doing is important and it matters and it makes a difference. And they don't have to look at their shoes and mumble when somebody says, what do you do for a living? You can say, I do things like this. And and honestly and sincerely, you know, be proud of that work because you should be proud of it. Because, again, the the the story of this industry as complicated and as messy and as unplanned as it is and as expensive as this. Right? I mean, it's health care is like a $6,000,000,000,000 business in the United States. With all of that said, it still delivers health care of equality that people come to this country for. So

Sara Payne [00:31:29]:

Yes.

Jon Austin [00:31:30]:

Yes. You don't don't ever lose sight of that fact either.

Sara Payne [00:31:34]:

Yeah. I think that's a great point for us to end on. I I firmly believe that as an industry, we are doing far more good than bad. It is why we are here. We're it's very mission driven, and we owe it to ourselves, our colleagues, but most importantly, the audiences we serve, the customers we serve, whether they're members or patients or or whoever else in these stakeholder groups. We owe it to them to continue to tell those stories of why we wake up every day and do what we do and the commitments we're gonna continue and even talk about the the the really gnarly problems that exist and own it and acknowledge it and say, this is hard. And we don't have an immediate solution, but we're working towards it. And here are just some small examples of some little steps we've taken towards that.

Sara Payne [00:32:33]:

Right? I think that sometimes in our world, larger corporations, you know, being somewhat bureaucratic in the approach to communications at times, we don't let those stories out or we can't find them.

Jon Austin [00:32:49]:

They're the they're the they're the the 9th thing on your to do list.

Sara Payne [00:32:52]:

Yes.

Jon Austin [00:32:53]:

And and your whole day is consumed doing the first 6 because they're urgent and they're they're they've got a faster deadline or whatever. Yes. And you're and and you're driving home and you think, I didn't do that thing. Well, that that thing, like, like, capturing that that password may not be the most urgent thing, but it may may be the most important thing on your list. That it's just it's just a function of our world that, you know, those things end up as 9th sometimes.

Sara Payne [00:33:21]:

And it's why we do what we do with our clients because to your point, they don't have the luxury maybe every single day to focus on the more proactive unearthing of these stories. And, you know, when when our philosophy and when we talk about thought leadership, we don't mean it in terms of promoting the organization and just making yourself look good. We mean it in terms of framing it from the audience, the patient centric lens in the world. What are the problems that are keeping those people up at night, and what are you your ideas for how to solve those, and what are you doing to solve them, and how can you be a steward in linking arms with other innovators and thought leaders to actually tackle some of this really gnarly stuff so that we're not sitting here another 12 months from now saying, gosh. We really didn't make any progress on that key pain point that people have, but really owning that and and being committed to being part of the change.

Jon Austin [00:34:22]:

Yeah. And and I I'll just I'll I'll echo that. When I was, on the client side of things, one of the great, uses I had of an agency was exactly that. Take them out of the firefight, give them a project that's really important, and but needs consistency and constancy of effort and say, you know, I can fight the fires all day, but I need to know that you guys are also pushing forward this program too because it's not as urgent perhaps every day. But, boy, in the long term, it's it's just as important, if not more so. So I I think that's a a great way to to to, you know, allocate resources.

Sara Payne [00:35:02]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And and a great way to to wrap the conversation today. I, again, want to acknowledge the human toll of this tragedy.

Jon Austin [00:35:11]:

Yes.

Sara Payne [00:35:12]:

It is a sobering reminder of the stakes that we're dealing with in health care, not just for individuals, but for the system as a whole. Rebuilding trust isn't going to be easy. It's going to require a sustained effort, open dialogue, and a willing to a willingness to admit when we've fallen short. Thank you, Jon, for joining me.

Jon Austin [00:35:33]:

Really, really a pleasure as always, to spend time with you and and, and do it on camera. Well, I I I don't usually do that, but that's the lovely.

Sara Payne [00:35:42]:

Well, thank you for for being willing to do this, as I said, and and thanks to our listeners as well for joining us today in this important conversation. If you'd like to share your thoughts or continue the dialogue, please reach out, to myself or Jon. Jon, what's the best way for listeners to get in touch with you?

Jon Austin [00:35:59]:

Website, jaustingroup.com. Jon@jaustongroup.com will get me, you know, it's, the nature of my business. You call, you email, odds are I'm gonna answer.

Sara Payne [00:36:12]:

He's got a red phone, and when it rings, he answers. I can I can assure you of that? Even if it's the 3 AM on on Christmas morning, Jon will answer the phone.

Jon Austin [00:36:22]:

Which which nobody wants to do, but if they have to, that's what we're here for.

Sara Payne [00:36:27]:

Somebody's gotta do it, and Jon's the guy. Well, again, appreciate everyone for joining us today. I I do believe that together we can work toward a future where trust is at the heart of everything we do, and I believe the future of health care depends on it. We'll see you

Jon Austin [00:36:43]:

next time.