Unforgettable or Nothing: Raising the Bar on B2B Health Creative

Sara Payne [00:00:10]:

Welcome back to the Health Marketing Collective, where strong leadership meets marketing excellence. I'm your host, Sarah Payne, and I'm bringing you fascinating conversations with some of the industry's top marketing minds. Today, we're talking about the future of creativity and health marketing, and why it's time for b two b brands to raise the bar. My guest is Mike Cronin, cofounder and chief strategist at Verve. He's built a career around one clear belief that creative work should move people, not just fill space. He's led brand and campaign strategy for some of the biggest names in health care, including UnitedHealth Group, Blue Cross Blue Shield, and Optum. He's also worked with iconic brands like Harley Davidson and Samuel Adams. Mike brings a creative lens to strategy and a strategic lens to creativity, and he doesn't shy away from telling it like it is.

Sara Payne [00:01:05]:

If you've ever struggled with uninspired briefs, safe ideas, or campaigns that just blend into the noise, this episode is gonna fire you up. We'll talk about how to unlock emotionally resonant creative work in healthcare, why simplicity is a superpower, and how marketing leaders can build teams that actually want to swing big. Welcome to the show, Mike.

Mike Cronin [00:01:28]:

Thanks for having me. Looking forward to the conversation. Yeah.

Sara Payne [00:01:32]:

I'm excited to have you here. Let's let's get right into it. From your perspective, how is creativity evolving in b two b health care marketing? What shifts are we seeing?

Mike Cronin [00:01:44]:

Well, I think big one is frankly that it can the marketing can appear anywhere now. So instead of being, confined to spaces where we would traditionally see B2B, messages happening, they're now being sprinkled in with your social media feed, LinkedIn, of course. It it's just appearing everywhere. So that's a vast shift in how we have to think about how we break through with creative. So, you know, how do you compete with consumer brands that are appearing in social feeds, even though your message is a b to b message?

Sara Payne [00:02:31]:

Yeah. Great point.

Mike Cronin [00:02:32]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Sara Payne [00:02:33]:

Great point. Another thing I know you're you're passionate about is is moving beyond the idea that creativity equals flashy campaigns and really seeing it as more, more and more of a of a strategic lever. How can we how can we continue to embrace that shift?

Mike Cronin [00:02:57]:

Yeah. Good, good point. You know, it tends to be people when they think about creative it's, it's like you said, people think flashy. It's gotta be crazy, some awful wall idea. To be honest, we we've my my partner and I, at the firm have always felt that creative, there's a lot of room for creative within the confines of very defined parameters. So, a lot of people think about creativity as, you know, outside the box. Right? Think outside the box. No, I want the box.

Mike Cronin [00:03:38]:

Give me every defined parameter there is because there is a ton of room in there to be smart and creative. So we're not, we're not just doing it to get attention. We're doing it because, you know, we're in this profession to to make things happen for our clients. And if that means we have to stick within some guideline, that's fine by us. We just wanna know right up front what that guideline is. So the mistake people are making is thinking it's a wacky idea is what creative is about. No. Creative is about actually finding incredibly intelligent ideas that can break through within a very defined, box.

Sara Payne [00:04:27]:

And they can still be fun, funny, humorous Absolutely. Inside of that box if that is strategically the right direction for the brand, for the campaign, whatever the objective is, whatever the right audience is. Right? If that is strategically the right direction. So being in the box doesn't mean boring, dull. Right? Uninteresting. Actually No. I think what you're saying is quite the opposite is we have to make sure it's strategically anchored first, and that's where the creativity should be focused. And then inside of that, appropriately, we can dial in these elements of, you know, fun at an appropriate level.

Mike Cronin [00:05:08]:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Like, you you set up this whole thing with that philosophy that we hold dear, which is you have to move people. So no matter what you're doing, it's about moving them both in their hearts and in their minds. So that's two, we, we, we view it as a spectrum, right? Like every piece of creative has to do both in some level, whether it's tapping that emotion or whether it's really hitting hard at, making, giving people reasons to believe what it is, you're saying. Every piece of creative has to do that. So as long as, we're able to move people in that way, happen to emotion, you can do that in different ways. And that's all we're saying is creative.

Mike Cronin [00:06:00]:

As long as it's doing that, it's doing its job.

Sara Payne [00:06:04]:

Yeah, absolutely. Another thing that you've said is we're either trying to make something unforgettable or we're just making noise. And that line really stuck with me. How do you think that idea idea applies to health care marketers, especially in b to b where it can feel a little risky sometimes to I'm gonna use the word bold, be bold. You know, this this notion of unforgettable obviously could have a lot of different definitions associated with. But what's your reaction to that?

Mike Cronin [00:06:41]:

Yeah. I mean, look, we're making marketing, and the whole point is people need to remember your message, whatever that message is. So that's where that's coming from is, why are we doing this? If, if somebody's gonna see your message and then the next minute, forget it. Yes. So being bold is about breaking through enough again, that it people not just, don't just see it, but feel it. And I think it's easy for, especially, you know, I've seen it in healthcare brands. It's like, let's not let's be blue. Every everything's blue.

Mike Cronin [00:07:27]:

Let's let's stay within our color palette. And and I think that can be right for many brands. But if everyone's blue, then how do you stand out? Right? Right. Like, can we look for a different approach? And again, much more likely to be remembered if we approach it with, oh, you're orange. That's a very simplistic idea, but but you get the point.

Sara Payne [00:07:56]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. What are some of the universal human truths that b2b healthcare marketers should be tapping into more, but often miss or maybe under leveraged?

Mike Cronin [00:08:14]:

That's a big question.

Sara Payne [00:08:16]:

I know. I know.

Mike Cronin [00:08:17]:

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's easy for healthcare to fall into the trap of, putting people into defined sort of ideas about who they are. I think recognizing that there is no matter who we are, whether, you know, our our ethnicity, our background, our socioeconomic background, we all experience similar, issues. Right? And so tapping into truth, like we're nervous about visiting doctors or, we are, we may have grown up in a, where we're afraid to go into a hospital or whatever, whatever those truths might be. It makes you as a brand, if you can tap into that, really feel like you get people. And that's our goal. Right? We wanna feel like we get people.

Mike Cronin [00:09:36]:

So I think I'm I'm sort of taking us back to this idea of there's so many ways we can parse audiences these days. We can get into such granular detail on who our audiences are and, you know, their, journey, what, where are they at in their journey? Sometimes stepping way back and saying, what is it that we all experience as humans? Yes. Can be a smart way to tap into that emotion. And so that's what we try to do is look for those sort of very basic things that make us all, a part of one another. We, we feel, human because we all experience these things. We we like to look for those.

Sara Payne [00:10:31]:

Yeah. I I love that about your work and your approach at at Verve having experienced it myself. And I think when I think about this topic, this conversation, I think it tends to be a little easier for the consumer brands. Right? And a little a little stretchier, a little harder in b to b marketing, advertising, insert, right, whatever discipline here. On the b to b side, we tend to maybe not be as closely aligned to some of those, human truths. Right? We tend to focus on cost savings or faster workflows or efficiency or minimizing burnout for clinicians. Those are all wonderful things, but they are a a step away from and not as, you know, strongly, clearly aligned to some of those core human truths, like on the positive side, hope, right, or dignity. On the more negative side, fear.

Sara Payne [00:11:36]:

You brought up, nervousness, fear. That's a big one. And so I think that's an opportunity from my perspective for b to b brands to your point. We are competing on all of the same channels with b to c brands. And so we really wanna get get through the noise on that. We're gonna have to be unforgettable, and tapping into those core human truths is absolutely a way to create that resonance, and achieve that.

Mike Cronin [00:12:08]:

Yeah. Totally. And good point. You know, again, the financial administrator at a, at a local clinic that needs to decide, you know, who they're gonna partner with for their, whatever it may be. They're human. And so again, a cheaper plan, a cheaper plan or a, a more, a product that helps them with being more productive on their end. You can phrase that, or you can put that you can position those products in a way that, again, taps into that human desire for, like, I don't wanna be dealing with all this headaches. Right.

Mike Cronin [00:12:53]:

We're all human. Nobody wants to do paperwork or wherever it might be. So if there's a way we can tap into that piece of their humanity versus just going right to saves time, saves money. You know? How can you how can we put it in a way that, really makes them feel like, oh, you get it. You get what I'm going through.

Sara Payne [00:13:17]:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You've certainly worked with a lot of different brands across your career. What what do you see as the difference between teams that unlock great creative and those that don't?

Mike Cronin [00:13:32]:

Very easy. Strategy. The teams that and this is yes. I'm a strategist, but, I grew up in creative, so I get to say this. Creatives and clients who recognize the value of that creative insight or sorry, the strategic insight, they're the ones that will be able to do, more creative quote unquote work. Because, once you've aligned around that kernel, that, that interesting insight, that way of phrasing the strategic insight, and everyone's behind that, if they see it in the creative work, they're totally comfortable with it. I think the biggest issue, why you don't see that many, again, creative or, you know, crazy creative ideas in healthcare tends to be because we approach things very, I don't know, non strategically, it's like we need an ad or we need a campaign. Let's go make that thing.

Mike Cronin [00:14:49]:

Whereas if you just take one step back and say, okay, we know we need that thing. What are we trying to say? What, what truly is our insight? How are we gonna say it in a way that's different, unique to us? You know, as long as teams are committed to the idea that strategy is important, they can generally do better creative.

Sara Payne [00:15:16]:

Yeah. And and you've also said I love this line too. Give me the freedom of a tight brief. And and I think it's it's counterintuitive. Right? This idea of freedom coming under a tighter, a narrower focus, but the freedom comes from the clarity and the alignment, right, that the creatives get in understanding this is the problem we're solving for over here. Right? Now we have all of this freedom to go creatively. Right? All sorts of different directions inside of that tighter box.

Mike Cronin [00:16:02]:

That is exactly right. In fact, you know, been a lot of studies done on the value of having that tight brief. But one that wasn't in advertising that is often, pointed to. And I, I love it. It's I, and again, don't quote me on where this came from, but it was, an experiment where they, they let kids free roam in a playground. Right. And then just open playground versus giving kids a sandbox and saying, go play in the sandbox versus just go to the playground. Again, I don't know the specifics, but I do know that the kids that were given the sandbox to play in were much more imaginative with their play.

Mike Cronin [00:16:58]:

They made up new things to do. They, you know, had, whereas when they were given the sort of utter freedom of the playground, they kind of got lost. They didn't know quite where to play or where their imaginations could take them. So that's, your, listeners can look it up, but it is a pretty famous experiment. And I just believe it to be true. It's like you said, the more you know about what the problem is to be solved, the more ways you can think, the more creative ways you can come up with to solve that problem.

Sara Payne [00:17:35]:

Yeah. It's such a relatable example. Right? And and you're so right. Because if you have the entire playground, you're gonna spend half the time just testing different things and deciding which thing you wanna be doing, right? And let alone getting creative, right? And so that clarity really unlocks a tremendous amount of freedom for sure. I wanted to get into some brand examples. Can you share an example of a campaign or or a project, something that you were involved with where you were able to do something creatively different or risky, and you don't have to say, you know, who the brand or or the client was if you don't want to. But I'm curious, what made it work? You know, where you were able to do something creatively different or risky.

Mike Cronin [00:18:35]:

Yeah. I'll give an example. It's it's within healthcare, but it's, admittedly more consumer focused, but but I think it's a good example of, using being a little risky and having that stand out. So we were approached by a client who, it was health partners, which is a, a local, they provide they're like healthcare, clinics, multiple clinics and different types of programs, care providers, all over the state of Minnesota and around the region. But they also provide health plans. Yeah. So they're both, they're both sides of the coin. The issue was they had all these clinics that had different names, brands associated with them, and they wanted a campaign that helped bring all those under the umbrella of health partners.

Mike Cronin [00:19:40]:

They had to do it in a, very quick way and they had to figure out a way to do it fairly reasonably priced. Yeah. Because again, how do you bring, you know, let's say 10 or 15 different clinics under the same brand? So our idea was, a very simple device that appeared at the end of we were doing television, a television campaign that rolled all these clinic names into and under the healthcare, sorry, the health partners brand, their their logo. It was just a visual device. But the clincher was we used we needed a hook. And the hook we landed on was, do you know Lizzo? Yeah. The artist Lizzo. Yes.

Mike Cronin [00:20:40]:

She had a song. This is around the time her songs were she was starting to blow up, but this is before, that happened. She had a song called good as hell that

Sara Payne [00:20:52]:

was I know it. Know the lyrics well.

Mike Cronin [00:20:55]:

Popular. Yep. Everyone very pop driven song, and the lyrics were literally good as hell. I feel like feeling good as hell, but it had this energy to it. So the risk was we tapped into that track, set it against moments of human, interaction. So a guy trying yoga for the first time or somebody seeing their newborn baby or, a child with, cold, like her sister helping her with her Kleenexes. You know, just little human moments with this great track. But again, using the lyrics good as hell for a health plan.

Mike Cronin [00:21:46]:

But the beauty of it was it all just came together, as a unit and fit with their within their brand aesthetic of of good. They they were all about doing good. So it was a creative risk. But honestly, to this day, I don't I'm not really sure they knew that the lyric was good as hell because nobody nobody seemed to question in it.

Sara Payne [00:22:15]:

I was gonna ask you if you got any pushback.

Mike Cronin [00:22:18]:

Yeah. We didn't really get a note get any pushback. So, you know, again, credit to the client on that one as well because they saw the value in in having that hook. But

Sara Payne [00:22:30]:

Yeah. No. It's a great it's a great example, and I I remember you're telling this story. You and I didn't talk about this example before we sat down to record today. I associate that song with that brand. Like, I hear that coming from the TV, and I know that it's HealthPartners. Yeah. So just really interesting, for me to have experienced it, you know, as the consumer on the other side.

Sara Payne [00:22:59]:

And, yeah, what what a gift in in that instance. You know, you found you found alignment around something like good, and Mhmm. More broadly, feeling good worked.

Mike Cronin [00:23:12]:

Yeah.

Sara Payne [00:23:12]:

Right? It works in health care. It worked for the moment. Yeah. And not being afraid to to lean into that, for risk of a client saying, well, we can't say that word. Right? We can't say that word on TV, or we can't, you know, be a brand that's associated with that, but I love that. Like, you talk a lot about honest pragmatism and how creative people respond to truth, not toxic positivity. I think a lot of marketing leaders need to hear that. Can you say more about how that mindset shows up, or what advice you'd give to CMOs who want to lead with that kind of clarity and empathy?

Mike Cronin [00:23:50]:

What I'd say is, again, recognize it's it's very deep. We're in a environment where often we are sprinkled with BS. Right? Like we it becomes a part of our daily lives, whether it's lingo that we all use for shorthand, or acronyms or whatever, we fall into those traps because we're just sort of, it's, it's the frog in boiling water, analogy. Right? I don't know if you know this, but, you know, it's the if you put a frog in a pot of water and then turn on the the heat, they don't feel the water around them getting warm and eventually they don't jump out. Right? Yeah. That's where we're at right now. It feels like we need to recognize that sometimes we are all in this boiling pot of BS and the more we can just speak to each other as honest people, as human beings, the again, the better we're all going to be, because that's how we relate to people. I, you know, I've noticed, the more we talk about BS in meetings or, you know, cutting through BS, people really respond to that.

Mike Cronin [00:25:19]:

And I think it's just because whether it's our feeds, our LinkedIn feeds, or our, you know, the news feeds, people want an escape from it. So my advice to CMOs is tap into that human side and remember that the more real you are with people, the more trust you're going to build with them.

Sara Payne [00:25:47]:

Yes.

Mike Cronin [00:25:47]:

Because they will know if you're trying to BS them. So, even if it feels scary, use strong words, if you need to, don't try to cover over, issues or problems because people know it, whether or not they say it outright, they feel it, and that erodes the trust that they have in you. So I I don't know if that answered your question, but that's just a strong feeling I have in today's world.

Sara Payne [00:26:29]:

Yeah. And I I really appreciate you speaking that truth because I I agree with it, a %. I think there is a lot of BS or or or varnish out there, and we need more more of the authenticity, more of the, you know, saying the quiet part out loud, the the the hard thing, right, that we maybe don't want to address. We need to be willing to to really go there. And I think, as you've said, audiences will respond very positively to that because the reality is they're living that truth. Right? They are living that truth. So why would we try to pretend otherwise? Creating an environment as a brand where we speak those truths, I think offers a lot of, it's just very, I think it's very attractive to people. I think it's, it's a very emotionally resonant.

Mike Cronin [00:27:33]:

Yeah. And whether I, again, I always go back to whether or not it, it, it can be scary to be real, but people there's a, there's a resonant, there's an idea of trust that gets eroded when people aren't speaking real with each other. Yeah. Even though it might feel safe, it's not safe.

Sara Payne [00:27:56]:

Yeah. Great point. Yeah. Great point. Well, before before I let you go, I'm gonna hit you with a few quick fire questions. No no overthinking any of these. Just say what comes to mind.

Mike Cronin [00:28:08]:

Sure.

Sara Payne [00:28:09]:

So what's one word that should never be in a creative brief?

Mike Cronin [00:28:22]:

Blue sky.

Sara Payne [00:28:25]:

Goes back to your earlier point. Love it. Exactly. You're consistent. You're nothing if not consistent here, Mike. What's a health care buzzword that you wish would disappear?

Mike Cronin [00:28:38]:

Outcomes.

Sara Payne [00:28:41]:

Yeah. I feel that. I feel that. What's the most creatively inspiring brand outside of healthcare right now?

Mike Cronin [00:28:56]:

I'm gonna S I'll go with, the probably the obvious, but, Nike right now, especially revisiting their roots.

Sara Payne [00:29:08]:

Yeah. Was it them that had the big Super Bowl, ad, women empowerment that really got a lot of resonance with the audience? Yeah. That's a good that's a good one. They they are definitely honing in on those, human truths for sure.

Mike Cronin [00:29:27]:

Absolutely. So

Sara Payne [00:29:29]:

let's say you you personally are stuck on a creative problem. What do you do first?

Mike Cronin [00:29:36]:

Oh, yeah, GPT. No, I, no, I,

Sara Payne [00:29:44]:

A moment of levity here.

Mike Cronin [00:29:46]:

Yeah. Yeah. Let

Sara Payne [00:29:49]:

us into your, your creative process. Where, where do you, what do you do?

Mike Cronin [00:29:55]:

Well, honestly, I have such a tight and strong relationship with my partner in our business that I call him. And Yeah. So I I have a relationship that I can a trusted relationship that I can tap into, and that's what I'll generally do.

Sara Payne [00:30:14]:

Awesome. We should give him a shout out. Rob Burnham.

Mike Cronin [00:30:16]:

Yeah. Rob Burnham.

Sara Payne [00:30:18]:

Yeah. Last question. What's one thing that kills a good idea faster than anything else?

Mike Cronin [00:30:29]:

What I would say is overthink. So you've seen the phenomenon, you've experienced this, I'm sure, when you've been presenting an idea. And the first thing that happens is the CMO says, oh, I don't wanna talk. I wanna hear what everyone else has to say. And what that does is everyone else feels now like they have to say something because the CMO has now put them on the spot. And generally speaking, they're going to find something, a flaw before they start talking about what what they like. So not that there's never anything wrong with the creative work that gets presented, but, I

Sara Payne [00:31:22]:

know what you're saying though. It's it's it's leading with the closed mindset versus the yes and. Right? It's the old improv analogy. Like, okay, we're pitching we're pitching creative ideas, and they could be very conceptual at this point and and actually go in several different directions. We need to say, what I love about this is, and yes and that, versus thinking of all the possible ways that this could go sideways or doesn't work for the brand. So I I I feel that one for sure, and you're right. I I am familiar with that phenomenon.

Mike Cronin [00:31:57]:

Yeah.

Sara Payne [00:31:57]:

So you're saying you want this you would prefer that the CMO speaks first?

Mike Cronin [00:32:01]:

I would absolutely. If they want to. Now, but I will go back to, be okay. I'm going back to the BS thing because it's kind of BS. Everyone knows that it's gonna come back around to the CMO anyway.

Sara Payne [00:32:18]:

It's ultimately their decision. Yeah.

Mike Cronin [00:32:20]:

Right. So it's a little bit of that BS factor, that comes out. But, to your point, absolutely. Like this isn't about, there's no flaws. It's about how can we find the right before we find the wrong, because there may be ways to, position or change a campaign that are very easy to get around all the flaws. If it's right enough, we can get over the wrongs.

Sara Payne [00:32:53]:

I love that. That's such a great place to end. Thanks so much for doing this with me, Mike. How can our listeners get in touch with you?

Mike Cronin [00:33:01]:

Well, our website is madewithverve.com. And, they can always reach right out to me at at, my email, mike@madewithverve.com.

Sara Payne [00:33:14]:

Love it. Thank you again for joining me today.

Mike Cronin [00:33:18]:

Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Sara Payne [00:33:21]:

And if you enjoy the show today, folks, do us a favor and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for being part of the Health Marketing Collective, where strong leadership meets marketing excellence because the future of health care depends on it. We'll see you next time.