Why Your Marketing Team Feels Stuck

Sara Payne [00:00:10]:

Welcome to the Health Marketing Collective, where strong leadership meets marketing excellence. I'm your host, Sara Payne, and I'm

Sara Payne [00:00:16]:

bringing you fascinating conversations with some of the industry's top marketing minds. Today, we're discussing how to build a strategic marketing organization from the ground up. This topic is so rich that we're making it a 2 part series. In part 1, we'll explore what it means to be a truly strategic marketing function and the telltale signs that might indicate your team is operating reactively rather than strategically. In our next episode, part 2, we'll shift our focus to solutions, where to start, key steps to take, and how to build a marketing organization that drives real impact and growth. Joining me today is someone who's an expert at building and leading strategic marketing organizations, Yvonne Leonard. With a track record of driving digital transformation, leading product launches, and building thought leadership programs, she is known for creating high performing teams that balance continuous improvement, collaboration, and fun. She's also a longtime client and friend of mine, so I'm thrilled to have her on the show.

Sara Payne [00:01:16]:

Welcome, Yvonne.

Yvonne Leonard [00:01:18]:

Hi, Sara. Thanks for having me.

Sara Payne [00:01:20]:

Yeah. Thanks so much for being here. We've got a lot to cover, so let's dive right in. And let's start off with this concept of a strategic marketing function. I don't like to throw phrases around without first creating a common definition and understanding of of what we're talking about. So for you, Yvonne, how do you define a truly strategic marketing organization?

Yvonne Leonard [00:01:43]:

So a strategic marketing organization needs to actually impact the business and has to help drive business objectives within the organization. So they're not sprinkles. Marketing doesn't do pretty things. Marketing does strategic things and actually can help a company really drive the bottom line and really add to some of that predictability that all companies are looking for. Right? Predictability in your growth so that you can continue to grow. And, really smart marketing organizations can do that.

Sara Payne [00:02:17]:

Love that. Love that definition. And can you elaborate on that a little bit more and and talk about the kind of impact that a strategic marketing function can have on the broader organization? And as part of that, if you could address what difference it would make for sales or product development.

Yvonne Leonard [00:02:38]:

Okay. Great question. So from a from this from the standpoint of marketing really being strategic, we really should be able to ultimately help with numbers, help you drive your business. So we should be able to help you say, with this many impressions, we get this many clicks. That many clicks leads to this many leads. This many leads convert into sales. And you really should be able to almost reverse that math to say if we have to grow x percent next year, it's going to take this much in terms of to get that many clicks, it takes this many impressions, and it costs us this much to get that many impressions. And so that ultimately should be what you can reverse engineer if your job of your marketing team, the primary focus really is kind of that, building awareness and and lead generation and really trying to drive that into the funnel.

Yvonne Leonard [00:03:37]:

In the health care industry, marketing can have different roles. Sometimes it's a sales support role more than actually a marketing role. Sometimes it's more product management. I think the other thing that a really strong marketing team understands is, right, to get those clicks, you need to understand how to engage with customers. If you're developing a product, you need to understand how you are going to engage with customers, what customers are looking for from you. And so you can add, really beneficial insights into that product road map and really drive product development and, hopefully, avoid some missteps by really understanding that audience. So I I think marketing is twofold. Right? It's it's equal part output, but it's that input.

Yvonne Leonard [00:04:26]:

And I think the input is what's really often, a challenge in some organizations to really focus on what does the customer need, and and and that is something that marketing really should be kind of the true north. Right? Really the guidepost, the true north for this is what a customer is looking for.

Sara Payne [00:04:47]:

Out of curiosity, Yvonne, how many times have you done this within your career to to build a strategic marketing function from the ground up? It's more than once. Right?

Yvonne Leonard [00:04:57]:

Yes. I've done it approximately three times, and it depends on the organization. I mean, we could we can count higher. I've been, around the block a few times, but different organizations have looked for or asked for different things. So sometimes it's a ground up. Sometimes it's been more of a reengineering Sure. Or a refocusing. So, but I've always been able to kind of reengineer, refocus, and then grow that team in a way that the organization needs marketing to actually perform even if they didn't know it needed to perform that way when I walked in the door.

Yvonne Leonard [00:05:32]:

So

Sara Payne [00:05:33]:

Yeah. Actually, that that was I was gonna ask about that. In most cases, did you know you were signing up for this? I mean, now you're kind of known for this. Right? Like, you're specifically now hired for this. But were there any situations maybe earlier on in your career where you didn't know the function didn't exist and you that you were going there or that you were gonna have to build it when you showed up?

Yvonne Leonard [00:05:55]:

I think that I've always had an inkling that I would have to build it, and I think that comes from, early in my career actually being in advertising agencies and working with clients. I think that broad perspective and understanding the unique challenges that different customers and clients had, you start to see some patterns form. And no marketing organization is perfect. Right? We're living, breathing organizations, so there's always room for improvement. But I think the DNA tends to be relatively similar, and the problems tend to be relatively similar. And so when you start uncovering, you usually see some of those problems pop up right away, and then you know you're gonna be addressing it. And the problems that pop up tend to be fundamental. They tend to be bedrock problems, and you really have to kind of get back in and make some significant adjustments.

Yvonne Leonard [00:06:54]:

Maybe not always in the way an organization thinks you would have to make adjustments. Sometimes I think they think, you know, this team isn't working. We need an overhaul of the team, and it may not be a team problem. It may be a process problem, or it may be a lack of clarity of roles and responsibilities kind of a problem. And so I think it it you start seeing the DNA and you start understanding that that's the genetic problem with this organization or this marketing team, and then you go after it to fix it.

Sara Payne [00:07:26]:

Yeah. So let's talk about some of the patterns and the symptoms that that you've seen. What are some of those biggest red flags or indicators that a strategic marketing function doesn't exist? You you started to get into some of that there, but if you could dive a little bit deeper, that would be great.

Yvonne Leonard [00:07:44]:

Yeah. So I see, one thing that I like to call the bright shiny object group. Right? So when people or teams are focused on what's cool, what is this bright shiny object, and it's very much talking about cool tactics, that is typically a red flag for a problem. And that problem tends to either be a lack of process or potentially a lack of understanding. So that's one of the one of the things I see. Another common problem when you walk into a marketing organization is a team that it tells you basically our hair is on fire every day. Like, we just we're constantly behind the 8 ball. We can't catch up.

Yvonne Leonard [00:08:29]:

We're all burning out. That also tends to be either potentially a process problem or a role clarity problem. And so a lot of things kind of lead back to those issues. And and then sometimes it is a marketing titled role, and the role isn't really marketing. So you're hiring people with marketing background for a role, and the role is really 100% sales support sometimes or very much administrative or, just logistics for trade shows. Right? Make it pretty, and we wanna go here. And so the those kinds of things need to really be addressed higher up within the organization to kinda talk about what, you know, what you're missing out on by keeping somebody in a box and trying to define that role so so so tightly. Right? And I'm not saying that trade show support and sales support aren't important functions.

Yvonne Leonard [00:09:32]:

Right. You can get to think about what kind of resources you have and what are the best ways to deploy those resources within an organization to help the organization actually meet their goals. And so to me, it's really making sure that you understand all of that together because sometimes I think stuff is siloed in discussions and and and thought, and everybody is well intentioned. But I think sometimes, organizations are really missing out, by narrowly defining what marketing can do.

Sara Payne [00:10:05]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And this let's be clear. This this isn't just this isn't like startup organizations that only have this problem. Right? People might stereotypically think that, but this can be found in organizations of all sizes. Right?

Yvonne Leonard [00:10:19]:

That's that's correct. From startups to multinational companies, these problems exist across the board. And, again, I I think it's important for people to realize that there are some, right, genetic indications of what these these challenges are. And most companies are not alone, and most companies have bits and pieces of these things.

Sara Payne [00:10:45]:

Sure.

Yvonne Leonard [00:10:45]:

Some companies are more resourced and and marketing is marketing, and then there's marketing communications as a separate role and then meetings, events, and trade shows and those kinds of things as as a not another role and and how they interact sometimes also affects, kind of where the challenges are within within, how we take a look at making things better.

Sara Payne [00:11:08]:

Can you, speak to the the lack of clarity around marketing's role within the organization and how that then impacts the team's effectiveness?

Yvonne Leonard [00:11:20]:

The challenge with one of the things I love to do actually when I walk into an organization is to ask people, how do you define marketing? Yes. And very frequently, I get as many different answers as the people that I talk to. Sometimes there's some common denominators, but that tends to be an indicator that maybe we need to understand kind of what marketing's role is in the organization. But if you're in an organization where sales leadership thinks one thing and your senior leadership thinks another thing and your product team thinks another thing, it it's very easy for a marketer to try to please a lot of different people who have very different desires for what that marketing output is. And so by really kind of pulling back in and getting really clear about what things can be done, and what choices potentially an organization needs to make, to actually execute at a higher and more valuable level to the organization. You kind of have to peel that onion back sometimes and start having those discussions. But I I would say that's the challenge. Right? You you can't serve multiple masters.

Yvonne Leonard [00:12:42]:

And, depending on the the those dynamics within an organization, I mean, that's a very fast and easy way to burn people out.

Sara Payne [00:12:50]:

Yeah. 100%. So in the early days of of joining a new organization or restructuring a team, what are some of the key steps that that you take, Yvonne, to understand all of these unique challenges that are at play?

Yvonne Leonard [00:13:06]:

There are a couple of things I typically do. Again, first is to ask people what the role of marketing is. And and that that to me is an easy one, and it's it gives you a lot of insight. And then if you talk to the marketing team, right, ask them about what their greatest achievements have been, and where they feel frustrated. Talk to some of the other parts of the organization that marketing would partner with, and ask them the same kinds of things. Where do you think marketing needs to improve? Where do you think marketing does stuff well? And, you know, go in and really listen more than anything else and understand that everybody is usually coming from a very good place. Right? Everybody is well intended. And oftentimes, you know, as we start peeling the onion again, it's it's a mix of of different things.

Yvonne Leonard [00:14:03]:

If marketers are talking to you about what their, best accomplishment was and there is no measurement, and an objective isn't discussed, you kind of are dealing with potentially bright shiny objects. Are we focused on tactics? And I and I think that's a trap that a lot of marketers get stuck in. Right? It's a little bit of fire, aim, shoot.

Sara Payne [00:14:28]:

Well, this

Yvonne Leonard [00:14:28]:

is a cool thing, so how can we do this without really going back and, you know, understanding you do certain things to accomplish certain objectives. And when you try to reach an objective with the wrong tool, it's not as effective as it could be. So to me, you know, looking at our marketers talking about measurement. Right? Objectives of what they're trying to do and measurement. Is the organization frustrated with bright shiny objects, that they they want more bright shiny objects? You know, if you're not getting measurable objectives that an organization wants the marketing team to do and it's more conjecture, right, then you know that we have to have these discussions about making clear goals for the marketing organization and how do we how do we start doing that. So, you know, those are some of the things. Process is another thing. Right? There's a lot of scope creep that can happen.

Yvonne Leonard [00:15:31]:

Yeah. The only people how many people are in the decision making mix? Right? Again, if you're dealing with multiple decision makers and all of them kind of define what marketing's role is differently, Obviously, somebody's hair is gonna be on fire because you're gonna try to you're constantly gonna be disappointing somebody every time you turn around. So, you know, that makes it really hard. So those are some of the things, but really a lot of question asking and a lot of listening and just observing. Right? I think those are some very easy kind of first steps, because if you're taking notes and you're really listening and you have 27 pages of notes and there's zero commonality across the board other than they like bright shiny object tactics and nobody really know is is is clear on what marketing's role is here and there's no measurement, you have some places that you can make some improvements that really should impact the organization.

Sara Payne [00:16:31]:

Yeah. Absolutely. I think you're right. Listening asking questions and taking that time to listen is so incredibly important and an important diagnostic, if you will, of the current realities of the organization. And that you're hitting on so many, I think, common frustrations, common pain points that different marketing leaders, marketing organizations will face at any point in time within the organization, you know, having to answer to multiple different people without a clear decision making tree or line of approvals, and therefore, you know, having to run and please all these different people. I mean, a lot of these things that you're talking about, we see so commonly inside of different marketing teams, again, of organizations of various different sizes. I'm curious, Yvonne, what type of, time frame you like to give yourself, you know, early on in a new company, new environment to do this listening and, observing, asking questions process because, you know, there is also the pressure, right, to produce a plan and to, you know, show the organization what this new leadership is going to do. So can you talk a little bit about, generally speaking, what time frame you're doing this early work in?

Yvonne Leonard [00:17:53]:

You know, it has to be done typically relatively quickly. Like you said, there is pressure to show that you have improvement. But when you start uncovering things, like, do all of you realize that there is no common understanding what marketing's role is, I think you can sometimes start pitching some of the problems that that are very solvable, but start talking about the findings that you have. And so start talking about those listen really well for the 1st month, and then start diagnosing what you have and be real clear with your leadership team. Here's what I'm seeing, but I also think it's really important to talk to the marketing team as well and show them. Like, here are some of the things that I'm noticing. Again, organizational challenge. It's this is not on anybody individually.

Yvonne Leonard [00:18:49]:

Yeah. You need to you know, these are things that I, you know, think we could improve upon and and could make everybody's lives better. And so, you know, I would say, you know, diagnose in 30, have kind of a game plan, or at least have those discussions moving up, the chain to say these are things that we need to address. And then, that plan for addressing and executing needs to kind of happen all in the 1st 90 days. But you don't have to and I think we'll talk a little bit more about this later, but you don't have to fix everything day 1. Right?

Sara Payne [00:19:27]:

Yes.

Yvonne Leonard [00:19:28]:

What we need to do is we need to figure out where we can fix things and, you know, prioritize what's broken and then fix according to what's fixable and where can we make an impact and where can we gain a little bit of momentum to make everybody feel like they're doing a better job. Because if you're dealing with an organization potentially that says, you know, you know, we don't think our marketing team is performing. I mean, I was in an organization that actually said that to me. We don't think our marketing team performs very well, and, like, we're putting you in here to kind of challenge the status quo. And, a lot of it was process issue issues. Right? So it it might not be the marketer, and I think it's very unfair to necessarily look at culpable individuals as the immediate fix. Now you may have a bet. I'm not saying that, like, sometimes there are cancerous individuals within an organization that are just bad bad bad news for how things are going to go.

Yvonne Leonard [00:20:34]:

But, typically, I think even if people are slightly defensive, right, they're worried about their job and everything else. You know, know, one of the things that we have to learn as leaders is nobody's gonna do their best work if they're afraid. Right? Yes. It is paramount. So you need to make sure that you are empathetic and listening. And then if if there are issues that you need to do in terms of performance with individuals, those things can be addressed. But you can't come in, you know, with a big stick and start saying, you know, things are gonna have to change around here and, you know, be too bold and too too scary and Yeah. Because you'll lose people or people will clam up and you won't get anywhere.

Yvonne Leonard [00:21:23]:

And and I think that's something I've learned, along my career. I think I was a little bit more gung ho. We're gonna fix this tomorrow, and that doesn't that doesn't work. You may get change, but what you may lose is really good team members.

Sara Payne [00:21:41]:

Yeah.

Yvonne Leonard [00:21:42]:

Certainly because, you know, you're trying to prove to your leadership that you can make an impact so fast, but you have to work at the speed of an organization. And it you know, I think a lot of it is really great discussion with your leadership team, making sure they understand what you're trying to accomplish and and making sure that that is very open and honest and candid. Yeah. Because I I think you have to if you have process issues and clarity of roles and responsibilities, you can't really judge a human being doing a job when those things are lacking in an organization. And even though your HR job description says this is the role, in practicality, if that is not the role and that is not the expectation, that has to get fixed before and you have to give people a chance with more clarity to do the job that you asked them to do.

Sara Payne [00:22:41]:

Yeah. I I love so much of what you just said there, you know, this coming in. And, yes, we have to we have to show some progress and and a plan quickly. But in those early days, showing some of what you're hearing, and being able to describe some of those early problems because that's gonna build a lot of sort of trust with you as a leader that you that you are doing the work, even if you need more time to to finish out those listening sessions. And then the other part of that key point that you made there was, not this is not throwing the marketing this is not about throwing the existing marketing team under the bus. Right? This is not that because you do need some continuity. You are gonna wanna retain some of that legacy knowledge and important legacy knowledge, and you may actually have some high performers there that have just gotten caught in, you know, a trap of not having clarity in the role or, you know, a strategic leader in there to say these are the priorities and to help manage the expectations across the organization. So I love all of that.

Sara Payne [00:23:45]:

What what advice would you give for someone entering into a similar role like this who who may feel that immediate pressure, to make changes? Any other advice that that you would give them?

Yvonne Leonard [00:24:02]:

Personally, I think the hardest thing sometimes is to go in completely blank slate. Right? You may have interviewed with certain people who may have swayed you one way or swayed you another way or, your who you're gonna report to may see something one way, you need to keep yourself open to I have to make this decision for myself, and it can't be swayed by other people, Because if you're getting hired to be that person walking in and helping to diagnose and then, help rebuild and and refocus a marketing organization, you're hired as the expert. So you can't allow people who are not marketing experts to sway you. And so that would be for me the most important. Open mind, open open mind. Open heart. Really listen. Do not ask leading questions.

Yvonne Leonard [00:25:02]:

Leading questions are super easy to get stuck in a trap doing. Don't ask leading questions. You know, you actually have to kind of put on your therapist hat and and listen to people and see what you can deduce from that and ask good follow-up questions. But I think not making any decisions until you feel like you have covered your bases before you make, you know, an analysis is important.

Sara Payne [00:25:27]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Before we wrap this part 1 of this episode, I did wanna ask, if you've ever turned down a role where strategic marketing function needed to be built wasn't there? And let's take comp off the table. Right? Like, beyond comp, let's assume the organization's gonna pay you what you're worth to do the job at hand. But are there any other reasons why you would turn down a role like this, to to build this strategic marketing function?

Yvonne Leonard [00:26:03]:

A couple of things. Number 1, if I think that the leadership's expectations are unrealistic. And Yes. I explain, you know, this is gonna be a process, and it's a yeah, but. Yeah. But. Yeah. But.

Yvonne Leonard [00:26:19]:

You know, I always feel confident. I can we can get stuff changed and we can start making, things better and things better meaning for the marketing team as well as for the organization. Right? Mhmm.

Sara Payne [00:26:32]:

Yes.

Yvonne Leonard [00:26:32]:

That we can do that relatively quickly. But, you know, how much have you how much are you willing to resource for this? Like, if you're an organization who's not happy with your marketing, but your marketing is extremely underfunded and you have no desire to fund that any further. There's only so much that can be done in a certain period of time. Like, okay. If you're gonna wait if you're wait you can wait for only organic, you know, marketing to happen and and fine. But, like, are if they're not gonna wait for things like that, that's a problem. So I typically look at, you know, does the leadership team actually want marketing to play a more strategic role in the organization? Do I believe when they say that? And then also take a look at funding. And and, you know, where are you funded? Does that feel right? And then what kind of funding would be available? And, again, I'm not asking for landslides of, you know, buckets of cash even though I think every marketing person would love buckets of cash.

Sara Payne [00:27:40]:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Yvonne Leonard [00:27:42]:

Right? But but how do you you know, how funded is it, and are are they willing to do that? Because you can only do so much. Right? Yeah. If if the organization is not going to fund that role, or that team, enough to make change. Because sometimes if it's a process, you know, it may be an infrastructure change that's needed. There there could be things that the the organization is lacking fundamentally to get them to the next level. And if they're not gonna, you know, invest in that kind of a situation that typically is a no go for me.

Sara Payne [00:28:18]:

Yeah. That's well said. Well, we've covered the signs and symptoms that indicate a marketing organization might be operating without a strategic foundation. And I hope this resonates with anyone who's experienced the shiny object syndrome or the constant fire drills. We've all been there. You all are gonna get more of Yvonne's insights in our part 2 episode, where we'll dig into how part of this discussion, the tangible steps to transition a marketing team from being reactive to strategic, where each move is data driven, scalable, and impactful. Be sure to tune tune in in 2 weeks. Yvonne, if folks want to, reach out and get get in touch with you, how can they connect with you?

Yvonne Leonard [00:28:58]:

The best would be just, reach out through LinkedIn. Yvonne Leonard.

Sara Payne [00:29:03]:

Excellent. That's it for today's episode of the Health Marketing Collective where strong leadership meets marketing excellence because the future of health care depends on it. We'll see you next time.