Rebuilding Trust in Healthcare

Sara Payne [00:00:10]:

Welcome back to the Health Marketing Collective, where strong leadership meets marketing excellence. I'm your host, Sara Payne, and I'm bringing you fascinating conversations with some of the industry's top marketing minds. Today's episode is all about trust. We'll dig into some fascinating data and insights on the state of trust within the health care industry. We'll explore how it's shaping consumer behavior, influencing health related decisions, and even impacting health outcomes. I've called in an expert from the leading source on trust in our industry, the Edelman Trust Barometer. Joining me is Paul Ratzky, executive vice president of health technology for Edelman. He and his team counsel companies across the health spectrum, including life sciences, payers, health systems, big tech, and startups on the front lines of AI, connected care, and digital health initiatives.

Sara Payne [00:01:02]:

Welcome to the show, Paul.

Paul Ratzky [00:01:04]:

Thank you, Sara. It's great to be here.

Sara Payne [00:01:06]:

Yeah. Thanks for being here. Let's start with some background for our listeners who may not be familiar with the trust barometer. Can you give us a brief overview of the report and some of the key takeaways from this year?

Paul Ratzky [00:01:21]:

Sure. So, Edelman has been doing our flagship trust barometer, which, is a bigger picture view of of institutions and trust, for going on 25 years now. But 3 years ago, coming out of the pandemic, we decided to do a special report on trust in health. So we've been doing that for 3 consecutive years now. So that's, that's what this 2024 edition of this study was, that came out a little bit earlier this year. We had over 15,000 respondents. So it's quite an extensive piece of research across multiple countries, and we break it up into segments from geographies, demographics, etcetera. But, real top line, a few of the key takeaways this year.

Paul Ratzky [00:02:08]:

First off, slightly disturbingly, the 4 major institutional sectors that we measure, which is media, government, NGOs, and business, all 4 of them went down in rankings in terms of the trustworthiness of the ability to impart health information. And in fact, all of them are now in what we consider distrust levels. So that's quite a revelation in terms of the way information comes across. The one media specifically has come down 14 points since pre pandemic. So really interesting to see what's happened there. Another key point is the politicizing of health care, which we've seen the politicizing obviously of society as a whole, but that's really now come into health care and is impacting how people view information and make decisions. It's actually viewed as a bigger problem by almost all sectors than things like the next pandemic, affordability. I mean, a really huge problem that people are arguing, that way.

Paul Ratzky [00:03:13]:

With that comes misinformation, another key point that's come out of here. So people are trying to understand what are the motives behind the information that I'm reading. Why am I getting contradictory medical information? Why are the recommendations changing? So, people, that is now, a concern that is on par with access to care and the cost of care. So people are really viewing that as an impediment to better health. It's really just knowing the right information. That becomes especially important because of another dynamic, which is self empowerment. People are more and more now feeling the need to to empower themselves with this information to make these decisions. And we're actually seeing the correlation between trust and empowerment.

Paul Ratzky [00:03:54]:

They're 2 different dynamics, but together, that's what's leading to the best health outcomes. So as more and more people are trying to become empowered with this information, it becomes really important. It's interesting that 1 in 3 people feel like if they do research, they can be just as informed as their doctor. That number jumps to 12 for the under 25 crowd. So, that really shows you the extent of this of this empowerment and where it's going and why this misinformation problem becomes such a huge such a huge issue. 2 other last, key findings worth noting. 1 is the real rising prominence of the physician in all of this. People really look to and specifically my doctor.

Paul Ratzky [00:04:41]:

So people have much more trust in their doctor than in the greatest global health care expert. It's like it's this localization. It's similar to what we saw with business where business trust changes dramatically when it's my employer. So my employer is very, very trusted for health care information. My doctor is very, very trusted. And beyond just issues of what I'm talking about with my doctor, my my care, but bigger picture issues. If you wanna understand about a a public health issue, a policy, people are actually trusting their doctors to to hear more about that. And then lastly, sort of more in my realm is the concerns around technology innovation, in health care.

Paul Ratzky [00:05:28]:

Actually, our flagship trust barometer this year really focused on the risks of innovation and how people were not trusting innovations, and we saw that translate into the health care realm. So people, are really voicing concerns, about that. 63% of people in the US felt that technology was gonna have an adverse effect on health care in the next 5 years.

Sara Payne [00:05:53]:

Wow.

Paul Ratzky [00:05:53]:

So why there's a lot of ambivalence both ways. The concerns are real. So it's something that really needs to be addressed in the in this age of AI, which I know we'll I'm sure we'll talk about more.

Sara Payne [00:06:04]:

Yeah. Absolutely. A lot to unpack there. Excellent overview for for starters. And I I have to say, I'm really glad that Edelman made the decision to do a very health specific report, what'd you say, 3 3, 4 years ago.

Paul Ratzky [00:06:21]:

Yep.

Sara Payne [00:06:22]:

Because it's so incredibly important for those of us that are, you know, leading the charge here, getting information out there, trying to educate folks on how to make smart decisions for their health care. So, you know, really important topic for this particular podcast in terms of how are health leaders or marketing leaders, supposed to respond to and deal with some of these factors as it relates to the declining trust within the industry. Let's start. One of the points that I wanted to dive into first is this declining trust in institutions. From a marketing perspective, what can organizations do to rebuild that trust with their audiences?

Paul Ratzky [00:07:05]:

Yeah. First off, we have to be careful with our marketing. Yeah. Right.

Sara Payne [00:07:10]:

Fair. Fair point.

Paul Ratzky [00:07:12]:

I I think first off and and we talk about this in in in both of the reports this year. The acknowledgment that these issues are there. The acknowledgment that there is a politicizing of things and that that is a problem and people have to sort through that. And an acknowledgment that there's information out there that may be contradictory or may not be correct. And so a lot of it has to do with with acknowledging the problem and then becoming, an institution that wants to be a part of the solution. And that's why that's why I made the little crack about marketing, but it it actually becomes about, am I part of the solution? Am I an institution that's putting more trustworthy health care information out there? Is that part of my role, which is different than just selling my service or servicing my patients, but being a health care information leader. Right? And part of that, is putting science front and center. And we we talk a lot about sort of a reemergence of science, but it has to happen on a different way.

Paul Ratzky [00:08:14]:

In our in our main trust barometer this year, we said science has to integrate better with society. Like, science has to take a primary role, but they have to relate to people better and tell stories in a way that people can digest. So, you know, I I think we know the importance of it, and we know that that's where, you know, truth and facts lie. But but we have to do a better job of of putting those voices front and center in ways that are really digestible for society, though, as a whole. So that's a really, really big part of this.

Sara Payne [00:08:46]:

I'm curious, Paul, on that specific point of putting science front and center and and, you know, finding ways to relate better to people. Can you think of any examples? Do you see any companies or brands that you think are doing this particularly well that are kind of a good, you know, example for the rest to follow?

Paul Ratzky [00:09:08]:

I think I think there's a lot of just examples. I won't name any companies, but just things that I see happening. Sure.

Sara Payne [00:09:14]:

Yeah.

Paul Ratzky [00:09:15]:

First off is is making sure that, like, people like chief medical officers are doing talking. And with a lot of our clients, we're saying we don't want, you know, the CEO or the head of technology or whoever it is. That chief medical officer has to be out there and and and, you know, sharing this information and and talking about it from their point of view. We're also trying to get much more into data that's really impactful. Like, here's the impact that this is having. Here's what we're doing on the ground. Sharing that kind of information where people can really understand tangibly. And and, again, all of this goes back to when we started this during the the vaccines, right, and having to separate fact from fiction with real data.

Paul Ratzky [00:09:57]:

And, also, I think personal stories are becoming more important, lived experiences. And and so whether that's, in a b to b sense, having partners saying here's what's happening as I'm using this technology or whether it's patients saying here's what's happening when I use this, you know, type of therapy or when I'm going to this institution. So I think those kind of stories are all more impactful and make people have a better understanding of, of what's going on. And, you know, underlying that a lot of this is transparency. It's just being a little more open about here's what we do. Here's how we do it. Here's why we do it. Right? A lot of this comes back to purpose.

Paul Ratzky [00:10:39]:

Yes. And I'm not I'm not gonna peep the purpose driven drum. That's that's all over the place, but it it really does apply here. And I think in some ways, it's actually been underdone in health care because it's almost been assumed. Right? Right. We're in health care. Of course, we are mission driven and you know? But but this distress says, you know, why is hospital doing this? Why is a payer doing this? Why is a technology company doing that? Even even what's the motive of my position in recommending this test? I mean, there's a lot of issues that it's not a given in terms of why you do what you do. So, there's a lot of transparency that I think could be greatly increased to to build that trust.

Sara Payne [00:11:22]:

Yeah. And these are all really excellent sort of, you know, practical examples that folks can can implement that that make a huge difference when it comes to trust. And so many of these things are baked into what we already know from a what are the good principles of content marketing? What are the good principles of thought leadership? What are the principles of storytelling? Right? It is be real with me. Right? Acknowledge if if something's broken or it's not it's not working the way that it should. Let's not gloss over that. Let's acknowledge that. Let's share stories from people that are actually, you know, live to your point, lived experiences. They've gone through it.

Sara Payne [00:12:10]:

So and transparency. So critically important.

Paul Ratzky [00:12:13]:

There there there's an empathy underneath there that that, again, should be more of a given in our industry, but there's a lot of people who don't feel I'll tell you a funny story. There was a there was a chatbot test after Gen AI first came out, and they were actually chatbots as physician assistants who were doing the interactions.

Sara Payne [00:12:33]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Ratzky [00:12:34]:

And the chatbot's got a higher score on 2 areas. 1 was quality of information, and 1 was empathy. Empathy. Now that's not scary. That that they knew the chatbot is more empathetic than the physician live.

Sara Payne [00:12:51]:

Yeah. For sure. Well, that's that's a great segue, actually, Paul, because I wanted to go into AI next. You mentioned that AI in health care faces skepticism. And how should marketers that are promoting these innovative technologies address those concerns in their marketing?

Paul Ratzky [00:13:17]:

Yeah. What what's interesting in the data we're seeing in AI is that it's an ambivalence in the in the pure sense of the word, strong feelings both ways. Right? People are excited about what it can be and what it can do, but they have a concern about how is it being implemented and what are the unintended consequences. So, I think it's very important. Again, transparency comes comes to the fore here, but it's it's not being perceived as a cheerleader per se, but saying we we're really seeing a technology that can solve a lot of the problems that are already here. This isn't a technology in search of a solution. This is this can help with some of the challenges that health care has been facing And to be very specific about how it's being deployed, and that is everything from what data was used to develop it, who's overseeing its implementation, who's consulted, what is our, you know, human oversight policy, in those things? So I think all of those things have to be, really spelled out for people as they, as they roll this out. There's a lot of pilots going on on the testing, so people start small, and then they scale.

Paul Ratzky [00:14:31]:

That's really important. And people are also taking a very proactive stance about what regulation and oversight is gonna look like here. It's one of the first times we've seen the industry come together and actually go to Capitol Hill Yeah. And say, hey. We wanna talk about how we're gonna regulate this, and and we want this done, and we wanna figure this out. So I think everyone has to be a bit of a, thought leader and a proponent for what responsible use looks like, not just for themselves, but for the industry. Because for a lot of people, it's it's it's a black box. Right? It's a it's a thing that they just don't quite understand, and and algorithms are very mysterious things.

Paul Ratzky [00:15:11]:

And sometimes they are the proprietary product in and of themselves. So trying to say, here's how this works can be can be really, really tricky.

Sara Payne [00:15:21]:

Yeah. It seems to me as though the the health industry is sort of held to a little bit of a different standard when it comes to tech innovation and technology adoption comparison to other sectors. What do you see there, Paul? You know, what what factors contribute to that? I mean, obviously, we're talking about people's lives here, but, kinda what's at play there?

Paul Ratzky [00:15:49]:

I could talk for an hour just on this. It's initially why about a decade ago I came into health care. I was working in the digital disruption of other industries and doing all across. And I looked at health care and went, wow. It's a 10 years behind, and yet it's the most important sector possible because, you know, it's lives are at stake. But when you are in the weeds, you really realize how different the industry is. Right? Both because of its own impediments. Right? There's regulations and HIPAA and the way the technology is set up and siloed.

Paul Ratzky [00:16:22]:

I mean, we're not about connected systems and, you know, shared information. Right? It's siloed. The respect for authority, all those dynamics that technology, as it's coming to other industries, has handled it very differently. Right? They're coming into disruption is not a word that is really embraced, in health care. Disintermediation. Right? You know, undercutting authority, moving fast, breaking things, connecting everything. All these things that has been the bedrock of digital innovation in all these sectors doesn't quite apply correctly to health care. So, it everything has been a much slower adoption in health, and there are considered widely behind.

Paul Ratzky [00:17:06]:

But it's why AI has been such a shock to the system because, I mean, to be fair, AI has been around for a while. But when Gen AI suddenly explodes and suddenly health care is being asked in a period of months

Sara Payne [00:17:20]:

Right.

Paul Ratzky [00:17:20]:

Suddenly adopt something, it's just not the way our industry is, you know, is set up.

Sara Payne [00:17:26]:

Yeah.

Paul Ratzky [00:17:27]:

And and the risks are higher, but you can also argue that the benefits are more important.

Sara Payne [00:17:32]:

Absolutely. I'd agree with you on that. What are some of the other technologies or or innovations besides AI that that you're most excited about in terms of health care innovation?

Paul Ratzky [00:17:41]:

Yeah. I think, obviously, there's a there's a whole range of personal devices in the realm of remote monitoring and personal and wearables that I think are really, really evolving to become, you know, both medical grade from the personal point of view, and much more interconnected sort of from the clinical point of view. And I, so whether it's robotics or whether it's I mean, it's been interesting seeing the introduction of something, like I know lingo is just launched, so people are now monitoring, you know, but not diabetics. They're just monitoring their, you know, how they how they, process food. And and so they're using this medical technology for general health, and that's happening in all sorts of ways. But I think, ultimately, it's all and, obviously, robotics is now getting into surgery, and virtual reality is is happening in those in those realms. Digital twins is a really interesting technology that's now simulating body parts, if not entire bodies. Yeah.

Paul Ratzky [00:18:42]:

We can understand the impact of therapies on someone before we actually give it to them. But I think, ultimately, what we're looking at is sort of the vision of connected health that's been talked about for a while is starting to come to fruition now. All these individual things, it's like, okay. But how does that connect? Yeah. And I think more and more of these innovations are gonna have to define where where do I live in the continuum? How do I fit in? What do I connect to? Because, ultimately, that's that's the promise here is that everything's talking to each other. Its data's all coming together in a holistic way so that we can see things, understand things, not have the duplication, not have the the black holes of information.

Sara Payne [00:19:21]:

Yeah. Such an exciting time to to be in the health care industry for sure. You mentioned Titan

Paul Ratzky [00:19:26]:

is one word for it.

Sara Payne [00:19:28]:

Yeah. Well, there you go. You mentioned empowerment and that people are feeling more empowered to take control of their health, which is fantastic in many ways. It has its downsides as some of the things you highlighted earlier. How can health care organizations tap into this shift, this empowered consumer shift to build trust and create stronger, more meaningful connections with their customers?

Paul Ratzky [00:20:00]:

Yeah. I think, you know, it's interesting. Earlier, you were talking about the standards of content creators. But Yep. I think if you went to a lot of health care organizations, they wouldn't consider themselves content creators. So I think that's that's a starting point. It's just saying, if that is your role is to help change this health information ecosystem, First, view yourself as that's your job. And then and then, you know, also understand that your role is to arm the patient.

Paul Ratzky [00:20:29]:

We wanna make you a better informed we wanna partner with you. More and more, we're seeing when innovations come out, we're actually consulting with physicians, with patients, and making them a part of these teams that are trying to figure these things out and understand why these things happen. I think there's also a sense of going where people are. Yes. So I'll give you an example. Since 2023, there have been over 200,000,000,000 with a b, views of health care information on YouTube. Wow. That's huge.

Paul Ratzky [00:21:04]:

YouTube is YouTube is fairly aggressively trained to become a more authoritative source of health care information by recognizing who these sources are. And we're seeing more and more institutions like Mayo and Cleveland Clinic and individual physicians and even people who are doing lived experience. You know? With a cancer diagnosis, you're just as likely to say, what's it like to go through chemotherapy as you are to say, what's sort of right? So thinking about where you're putting your content and and, you know, what are peep where do people go when they try to get empowered with this with this information? I think it becomes a really important part of it.

Sara Payne [00:21:42]:

Yeah. I mean, to your earlier point, the media landscape. Right? Trusted media is down 14 points. Right? Plus plus media in general, the business model is is is challenged. And so brands have been themselves challenged to find new ways to reach their audiences. And, I mean, it sounds like if brands are not prioritizing YouTube as a critical distribution channel for education about their disease states, therapy areas, treatments, you know, insert solution here. It's a missed opportunity for for brands and and for marketers today.

Paul Ratzky [00:22:23]:

Social media in general, obviously, influencers have become huge.

Sara Payne [00:22:27]:

Yes.

Paul Ratzky [00:22:28]:

And it's interesting in that empowerment phase as people say, you know, I'm trying to find health information on my own. One of the most trusted sources is friends and family. So that Yes. Component becomes really critical. Now, interestingly, why it's one of the highest, it actually came down this year. And the reason for that is the misinformation problem crept into my friends and family.

Sara Payne [00:22:52]:

As we

Paul Ratzky [00:22:52]:

all know with family members, maybe, who we have disagreements about truth. Right?

Sara Payne [00:22:57]:

Yep.

Paul Ratzky [00:22:57]:

So, but friends and family is a very important aspect, of this too. So, you know, when we're thinking about, again, the places people go and how word-of-mouth happens, a place like social media is a is a major driver of that.

Sara Payne [00:23:14]:

Yeah. Well, let's talk about the role of physicians. You said people are increasingly looking to doctors, physicians to to play a bigger role in broader health conversations. How should marketers be thinking about that?

Paul Ratzky [00:23:33]:

Yeah. So I think, you know, we try to think about what type of content is more, you know, digestible for physicians and also where. So, again, as I said earlier, bringing, you know, bringing our medical personnel and scientists and r and d front and center in our communications is something that's gonna be much more responsive to a physician audience. We've we've had some clients, especially, like, in the tech realm who are trying to publish sort of peer reviewed papers, sort of taking more of a science approach versus marketing, and saying, this is why this tool is this way and something. So so really appealing to them with the sort of data and facts that they really respond to, becomes really, really important. And, also, you know, reaching out to them where they are. Things like things like Sermo Yep. You know, and proximity have

Sara Payne [00:24:23]:

become Doximity.

Paul Ratzky [00:24:25]:

Right? It's like those are places to go to. And and, of course, conferences and events, which I think some ways got devalued a bit during the pandemic. But Sure. In some ways, those are really reemerging as really strong places to to find certain segments that are very difficult to find otherwise.

Sara Payne [00:24:42]:

Well, and I think your other example earlier of, you know, when you have somebody, you know, being the face of your campaign, you know, out on the podium or or whatever it is, posting on social media, talking with the media, have that be your chief medical officer. Have that be someone who carries the the the clinician credentials because that's going to increase help increase trust with the audience.

Paul Ratzky [00:25:07]:

Or or or did you involve external physicians?

Sara Payne [00:25:10]:

That's that's where it's gonna go is is, you know, are you do you have any tips around that and how to do that in a, you know, authentic way that's not just like, you know, I have my own opinions about this, but like, hey, we paid, you know, we paid this clinician, you know, to say this great thing about our brand. Obviously, there's disclosures around all of that, but tips, advice you have on great ways, successful ways to integrate clinicians into 3rd party clinicians into marketing campaigns.

Paul Ratzky [00:25:43]:

Physicians are saying they want to be involved in the development. So it's not about the

Sara Payne [00:25:47]:

marketing, it's about the

Paul Ratzky [00:25:48]:

product development. It's like, when we're figuring out how are we creating smart rooms in our hospital, how are we creating, you know, new applications in the EHRs, what do when we're doing remote monitoring and connected health and hospital at home, it's like, are you involving frontline physicians and very, very importantly, nurses? We're actually finding nurses being more receptive to a lot of the technology innovation than physicians. I don't think there's any people involved there at all, but you don't. So so are are they actually involved in the development of the product, not just in the marketing of it? I think that becomes a really, really important part. It's also worth noting we have to be careful of the cross pollination of some of these trends. The reliance on the physician is great, but 4 in 10, especially in our under 35 cohort, said, if I think my doctor doesn't have my political beliefs, I will no longer see him.

Sara Payne [00:26:47]:

Yeah. So

Paul Ratzky [00:26:48]:

the so the politicizing of health care and the trust in the physician intersects in a weird way. And we see a lot of that a lot of that.

Sara Payne [00:26:56]:

And to your point, you know, I think having some clear understanding of of personas on a on a demographic level to understand, you know, this kind of content for this group over here and maybe that needs to look a little different for this group over here.

Paul Ratzky [00:27:12]:

In our study, we've actually broken out when we have that trust and empowerment dynamic, broken out the 4 segments. When you have trust and empowerment together, that's an but when you have the bottom segment where you have neither or if you have trust without empowerment, then you get someone who's very differential to the system. And if you have empowerment without trust, you have someone who's very skeptical. Yeah. We've actually seen a 20% bump in health outcomes for people in that top segment who have that both because they've got the information, but they're trusting, so they're making better decisions. Wow. And and also their embrace of that innovation. Those numbers I talked about with, like, acceptance of AI in key areas like patient interaction, diagnosis, drug discovery, hugely different with that crowd.

Paul Ratzky [00:28:04]:

Far more accepting, far more willing to embrace it. So so that's the segmentation more than just yeah. Obviously, seeing some of the age differences and seeing some of the country by country differences is really interesting, but I'm really fascinated by that by that empowered

Sara Payne [00:28:19]:

health Absolutely.

Paul Ratzky [00:28:20]:

And finding that finding that sweet spot of empowerment and trust together.

Sara Payne [00:28:25]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Well, Paul, I'd like to switch gears for a quick fire segment before we conclude the episode. I've got 5 questions for you. In one word, how would you describe the current state of trust in health care?

Paul Ratzky [00:28:41]:

Say precarious.

Sara Payne [00:28:42]:

It's a good one. That's a good one. I had a feeling you were gonna go in that direction. What's the number one mistake health care brands make when communicating with consumers?

Paul Ratzky [00:28:54]:

I would say it's it's that empathy word again. I don't think I don't think we've done a good job of putting ourselves in the shoes of who we're talking to. And that applies as much in b two b as it is in Yeah. Consumer. But, I I think institutions are just too wrapped up in their own mission and purpose and things. And I think we need to, really come at it more from the eyes of of the audience.

Sara Payne [00:29:19]:

This one's sort of a trick question. Do you believe social media has more potential to build trust or break trust in health care?

Paul Ratzky [00:29:30]:

That's a loaded one.

Sara Payne [00:29:31]:

I know. Right?

Paul Ratzky [00:29:36]:

I'm actually gonna say build. And I I'm

Sara Payne [00:29:40]:

with you there. I'm an optimist, Paul.

Paul Ratzky [00:29:42]:

Yeah. I'm an optimist, and I think it's it just follows people's drift to there. I mean, if as it becomes the major place you get news, it becomes the major place you're sharing content. It's the people you follow. You know, if you spend more time watching YouTube videos than watching television, I feel like that's the place where it has to happen. And and and I see a lot of positive things happening, and I see a lot of backlash to the negativity, and recognition of things like I was actually at a mental health summit last week, and it was about it was talking about teens and social media. And so I think the fact that we're recognizing that and trying to adjust, I think I think bodes well for for where it will go because it's not going away.

Sara Payne [00:30:27]:

Yeah. I agree with you. I'm curious. Does the does the trust barometer dive into trust of I mean, you have media as kind of one category. Is social media embedded into that, or do you kind of break that out in its own?

Paul Ratzky [00:30:40]:

No. We we don't get that micro for this. We've definitely done some other, you know, some other studies of different nature where we've sort of understand those dynamics more, but not specifically in the health care realm. But I think just, I think people's affinity for the content and the personalities in social media is just so much stronger than trying to to so much traditional marketing. I mean, I'm constantly looking you know, my wife watches all of these YouTube videos and and while they're sharing something, And she's going, oh, I need to look into that. And I said, boy, if that had been a print ad, it's like, that would have gotten nowhere. Right?

Sara Payne [00:31:22]:

Right.

Paul Ratzky [00:31:22]:

Suddenly, there's this trust and this interest in this. So I just we're we're we're seeing the the affinity that people have for it. And it's really just, I think, mastering it in the right way while constantly eliminating some of the some of the negative things that have happened, which I think all of the platforms are actively working on. I I mean, I don't wanna talk for x at this point

Sara Payne [00:31:49]:

Right.

Paul Ratzky [00:31:50]:

For some interesting reasons. That's fine. Yeah.

Sara Payne [00:31:53]:

What's the one thing that health care brands should stop doing to in order to regain trust?

Paul Ratzky [00:32:02]:

I would say I would say there's a combination of sort of cheerleading and chest beating that happens that sort of implies that the trust and the believability is implicit. And I think sort of it's almost a vulnerability, to say, we know this is hard. We know you have challenges. We know that we're trying to figure this out. We know that we don't do this well. We know that the change we're doing I I think being a little more vulnerable in a transparent way, I think, would build a lot of trust from people to say, yes. We're on this journey together, and we'll we appreciate you acknowledging that. And, you know, there was actually there was actually a hospital system here in the Twin Cities a year or 2 ago that is actually their TV spots where people are going through really bad experiences in their hospital.

Paul Ratzky [00:32:53]:

And they're saying, we know. We're working on it. We're trying. And I and I found it so, like, the fact that you acknowledged that you wanted it was really refreshing. And I just think the general sense of of that acknowledgment, versus sort of this very this very stoned institution sort of approach that I think peep a lot of people still perceive in health care.

Sara Payne [00:33:14]:

I would have been very fascinated to sit in the room while they debated and decided whether to move forward with that or not. Because you you you know that they were leaning into this, you know, let's own it. Let's be vulnerable and own it because it's gonna win us a lot. It's gonna let us win us a lot. But

Paul Ratzky [00:33:30]:

But they made it genuinely funny, which helped.

Sara Payne [00:33:33]:

True. Done well done well, it could go a long way. But I think, you know, a lot of brands are are scared. They to go down a pathway like that because it's perceived to be too high risk. Right? And there's too much, at stake. But I'm I'm kind of at the point of it might be riskier not to at this point. Right? I mean, if part of what we're hearing here is it's it's riskier not to say the things that need to be said and be vulnerable and and have high empathy, so go all in.

Paul Ratzky [00:34:05]:

Yeah. If you're gonna take trust seriously, then you're going to both, a, be transparent and, b, talk be bigger than yourself. So whether that means thought leadership around the industry or whether that means things that every word out of your mouth isn't directly marketing and benefiting you, but it's adding to the conversation. It's making people feel empowered. It's building a better information ecosystem. You know, we always say action drives trust. That's

Sara Payne [00:34:31]:

the key. Right?

Paul Ratzky [00:34:32]:

So trust doesn't work.

Sara Payne [00:34:33]:

Agreed.

Paul Ratzky [00:34:33]:

It's action. So what are you doing to demonstrate that?

Sara Payne [00:34:37]:

Show me. Yes. Last question. Where do you think the biggest opportunity lies for health care marketers in 2025?

Paul Ratzky [00:34:44]:

I'm really gonna come back to to connected care because I think I think that's I think that's so much the promise, and I think so many things that we have right now that we talk about are one offs. And it's like, I've got this thing at home, and I've got this smart bed, or I've got this device for my diabetes, and they've got this machine in the clinic that did this. And I I think people wanna make those connections, and that's what we get from every other industry, bringing this back to the whole industry thing. Right? When you think about how do I use my Delta Airlines app, how does my bank operate?

Sara Payne [00:35:17]:

Yes.

Paul Ratzky [00:35:17]:

How does Amazon operate?

Sara Payne [00:35:19]:

Yes.

Paul Ratzky [00:35:19]:

I think I think making people feel like health care is gonna start working more like that because it's not even close. And it's and it's almost the only industry at this point that that is like that. So I think starting to bring that promise together, all these individual things and challenges you want, we're starting to each individual solution is adding up to a bigger whole. And, again, we're doing it with that empathetic eye of making the experience better. And that's not just for patients. Physicians are in crisis. Right? Nurses Yes. Are in crisis.

Paul Ratzky [00:35:53]:

So whatever audience we're looking at that's necessary to make the health care ecosystem better, showing how our solutions are gonna ultimately add up. I mean, if there's an innovation coming in that in that physician set, that just needs more data that's coming in that I have to look at. I'm just gonna be overwhelmed more. Then then it's not getting us anywhere.

Sara Payne [00:36:12]:

Right. Yeah. No. I love that. I think that's a great point and an important thing for all of us to to strive towards. Paul, I feel like we could have probably talked, for 2 hours on this topic. And and to that point, let our listeners know that they can certainly dive in deeper to Edelman's trust barometer and specifically the the health report by by heading to the Edelman website. And, Paul, how can folks get in touch with you?

Paul Ratzky [00:36:40]:

Yeah. They should just contact me directly, paul.ratzke@edelman.com. Happy to, talk with anyone or share anything. But, yes, we do have a we do have a section of our site, with our trust information, the latest data, but, happy to share anything more directly with anyone who wants to reach out.

Sara Payne [00:37:00]:

Excellent. Well, thanks so much for sharing all of these wonderful insights today. You've definitely given us all a lot to think about.

Paul Ratzky [00:37:07]:

Well, thank you for the time. It was a real pleasure.

Sara Payne [00:37:10]:

You bet. That's it for today's episode. If you enjoyed the conversation, do us a favor and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for being part of the Health Marketing Collective, where strong leadership meets marketing excellence because the future of health care depends on it. We'll see you next time.