Bold Marketing: Measuring Success with Metrics, AI, and Consumer Insights

Sara Payne [00:00:10]:

Hello, and welcome back to the Health Marketing Collective, where strong leadership meets marketing excellence. I'm your host, Sara Payne. It's October 16th, and we are just 4 days away from the start of HLTH 2024 in Las Vegas. So today, we are finishing our 3 part series focused on the theme of this year's conference, which is be bold. Joining me in the conversation about what it means to be bold in health marketing is Michelle Rider. Michelle is an award winning, highly respected marketing executive and board leader who brings 30 years of experience leading transformative growth for some of the nation's most innovative and technologically forward health care brands. She's led marketing for organizations like Teladoc and Amazon Health, and she was recently named one of the top 50 women to watch for board roles by 5050 women on boards. What a privilege to have you on the show.

Sara Payne [00:01:04]:

Michelle, welcome.

Michelle Rider [00:01:05]:

Thank you.

Sara Payne [00:01:07]:

Yeah. So I'd like to start off, Michelle, with your point of view on what it means or what it takes to be bold in marketing today in the health industry.

Michelle Rider [00:01:16]:

That is a really good question. I I like what it takes versus what it means because that's really subjective. I and I guess what it takes is as well. But I think, it takes tenacity. It takes tough skin. It takes a willingness to look even outside of your industry for inspiration and to listen to new ideas and then apply those, in a bold and daring way. And so not being afraid is, very much, in line with what it takes.

Sara Payne [00:01:53]:

I love that. And I love what you said about, you know, looking looking outside of the industry for new ideas as well. I think, where the industry is at, we certainly are are in need of, you know, borrowing ideas of of what works from other parts, whether it's the retail sector, the technology sector. You know, I think we're seeing a lot of interesting growth and and sort of merging of those industries, inside of health. I'm curious, Michelle. I'd I'd love for you to give some examples of some health companies that you believe are really sort of setting the bar when it comes to being bold with their marketing. What companies come to mind for you?

Michelle Rider [00:02:35]:

Well, so I'm biased to Amazon Health. And I I know that I work there, and I I helped lead, the start of Amazon Care, which is, available today. But Amazon really, takes the model of if you think about Amazon Prime and having what you need instantly available to you or available within a couple of days, not weeks, not months, like you're used to in a health care industry. And then they surround, their health care offering with what the consumer needs. So you're you're using algorithms. You're using the information that the consumer can give you. And when I say consumer, I mean patient or member, can give you asynchronously. And then Amazon Care, marries that and provides solution health care solutions that are almost instantaneous.

Michelle Rider [00:03:29]:

So that is different. It's bold. It's different. And it is a slow take, but it is, I believe, going to work. And it's more and more what the consumer slash member slash patient demands.

Sara Payne [00:03:44]:

I mean, obviously, Amazon is is going to be leading in a lot of areas when it comes to to being bold. I think they you know, we've seen that from them in in almost everything that they do. And, you know, a lot of what you spoke to is sort of the the go to market strategy and the and the offering. And and how does that then translate to what they're doing from a marketing perspective? Obviously, you're not on the inside anymore, so you don't know it with, you know, that much sort of inside perspective. I'm just curious what's your take on on how to apply that boldness from a marketing perspective.

Michelle Rider [00:04:19]:

And not just with Amazon, but I think any company focused on digital health or health care. So where it translates, and I we may get into this later, but it's taking the use of AI. And so everyone talks about AI as if it's some new concept. But, I would say for the past 15 years, I've integrated AI into a marketing strategy. And, really, it is taking, like, the information you know about the consumer slash patient using those pain points and then serving, content and information in a way that's relevant to them in the language that they understand. And so technology plays a huge role in those health care companies where you see that they are making bold moves and bold strides in marketing today.

Sara Payne [00:05:09]:

I love that. And and I think you're right. I think we should dive deeper into that, later on in the conversation and and and go a little bit deeper around AI. But I love you're absolutely right. I mean, consumers want things that are going to be customized to them and relevant to them. Right? So it's it's the way that they're communicated, either by channel or by message, customizing that, as well as making suggestions to them, you know, customizing the the type of education that they might need based on behaviors, based on conditions, all of those types of things. You you've you've been with a lot of organizations. You've advised a lot of organizations.

Sara Payne [00:05:49]:

What what mistakes do you see companies making, and what advice do you have for other marketing leaders when it comes to this notion of being bold?

Michelle Rider [00:05:59]:

That's a really good question. I think, you know, mistakes that I see and mistakes that I've made personally, I don't mind being vulnerable. Getting enwrapped in the status quo, health care is really easy to do that. And the reason for that is so you have the the regulatory and and all of the, you know, the rules that we have to play under as a marketer, and those don't change fast or quickly. And then you have the patient slash member that, their expectations and what they're getting from other industries and other places are changing in what they're able to get. And then there's this lack of understanding from a leadership sometimes, lack of understanding on, the con the patient that they serve, diversity, really understanding how to use AI ethically, and then how to communicate. And so the mistakes you can make as a marketer is sort of playing safe because it works and really playing under the rules and not looking deeper into, yes, we have these CMS guidelines, but how do we push the envelope and how do we, we, act in favor of the patient in, following those guidelines? So risk you know, I think health care is still, especially from, like, on a payer or health system side, is pretty much risk averse. And then you have these up and coming cool digital companies that you'll see at health, which which are pushing the middle of that are you know, they're younger.

Michelle Rider [00:07:40]:

They understand the, you know, the speed in which the patient needs to be served. And so how do you marry those 2? And how and and the mistake you can make is, like, is, I believe, playing it too safe and not really taking those chances. And if I can, I'll give you an example of of this. So Yeah. I, I worked at, Aetna, and I was, leading their, services for individual, people that purchase individual insurance. And my partners were with, like, AARP, but also, like, Costco and Bank of America. And it was a a really, really, great role. And part of my job was selecting the type of vendors that, Aetna would offer to these individuals, and this little company called Teladoc had approached us about, like, this concept of telemedicine.

Michelle Rider [00:08:37]:

And I remember the hard no's that I got, you know, initially when thinking about bringing Teladoc into our fold and a service offering for patients. And I remember fighting for that and really talking about when you're serving an individual and how they really if they're paying their own premium, if you think about it, they're Mhmm. What they want from health care. And health care is not always about just being sick. It's also about being well, and it's about Yes. Things and about the other things that they get they were getting in the market. And so through lots and lots of meetings and and lots of convincing, we were able to bring Teladoc on as a vendor, as an offering for Aetna consumers or patients that, were purchasing their own health plans. When the the following year when we lost Obamacare, the contract in which was paying, like, most of my salary because it was all about, like, providing these individual offerings went away.

Michelle Rider [00:09:38]:

So I had to I was, like, going to have to change jobs within Aetna and take a new job. But there was an opening at Teladoc for a leader, on their marketing side, and I decided to take a bold move, and go into, like, this unknown sort of, to me, unknown digital space of offering telemedicine. And that's how I ended up at Teladoc.

Sara Payne [00:10:04]:

Oh, I love that story. Thank you for sharing that. And then my how things changed so rapidly, with the pandemic and and, you know Yes. Really embracing more of that virtual care telemedicine, visits and and whatnot. I wanted to go back to what you said about, customer insights, consumer insights, you know, however we wanna frame that. I I think you're right that a lot of organizations don't put enough emphasis there. Right? There are assumptions made of, you know, we we know our audience or, or sometimes there just isn't budget available to do more in-depth market research that would lead to these, you know, transformative insights that could really change either your go to market strategy or your marketing strategy from a messaging standpoint, from a, you know, really understanding the persona and what makes them tick. And do you have any thoughts, Michelle, on, you know, how to prioritize that work and that budget, you know, either from past roles that you've been in or or boards that you sit on? Do you advocate for, hey.

Sara Payne [00:11:20]:

We we really need to step back here and make sure we really understand, how the the customer views this offering or or what they want.

Michelle Rider [00:11:30]:

Yeah. So a couple of things that I've done in my past, one is, it's really important to, incorporate a feedback loop. So the best way to learn about your customer, but also, like, sort of how they're thinking or thinking ahead and whether or not you're serving them well and their needs is to, incorporate feedback and really trying to do that at, like, point of care or really soon after point of care. So one is, using feedback, and I'll give an example of that and, how I've done that in a second. The other is just I mean, there is so much information out there. It's really not a mystery. So I am a huge fan of AI, and I I use it very much so in my day to day role. So, even as a board member, so you have to FactCheck AI, and so not everything that you say is true.

Michelle Rider [00:12:30]:

But if you can, like, master the art of, prompt engineering and how to ask the questions, you can at least get directional information that can take you down, like, further opportunities for research. And so if you think about, like, large language models, like, that information is being pulled from all different sources. So you're just one person. You're trying to figure out how to incorporate, like, sort of insights and how to convince your team about how to use those insights. So getting that information, getting it in one place, getting it in, you know, much quicker than the months months it would traditionally take, is, I think, a smart and bold move for a marketer. And, if marketers aren't using AI today, they should be. But, so I would say asking for you know, asking customers for feedback and really designing well written, surveys that get to those answers, aggregating that information, and then using data in order to to convince, you know, leaders to, incorporate insights as part of the strategy. And then there's I would say every marketing strategy that, I've ever, presented always has KPIs and always has, you so because then you it becomes easier and easier to prove to convince, boards, leadership, of your ideas when you can prove your point.

Sara Payne [00:14:03]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Well, I love the the very practical examples you gave there on ways to get better insights about your customers and know how, to serve them better. I love this feedback loop as close to the point of care as possible and cost effective in terms of leveraging AI. Right. Right? Probably an untapped opportunity there. Recently did an episode with a a market research expert, Dan Riley, and he was talking about the same thing. There are points in time where we can certainly be leveraging AI.

Sara Payne [00:14:36]:

You know, it's going to have its limitations to your point. Right. But let's make sure we're going up to those limitation all the way up to the hitting as much as we possibly can because it's going to not only make you smarter, but it's gonna save you money potentially on, you know, questions you're gonna ask or the approach that you're gonna take if you need to go then, you know, to to more deeper, insights from a market research perspective.

Michelle Rider [00:15:00]:

I recently had to so I was trying to look at, nurses and, I was looking at, like, sort of Medicare and Medicaid and, the different rules per state, and then I was looking at how to reach nurses in all the different ways. So there's, like, the schools, the associations, the, you know, the the teaching institutions. And I had, like, all this data, like and even more than that, but just to make this quick. And I remember remember remembering about AI, and I put all of this data that I had into the model. And I said, make me a chart that, like, organizes this information, pull out the key insights from this data, and provide a summary. So, again, I would have probably taken, like, days and days and days of looking back and forth, opening different documents, trying to create my own pivot tables and spreadsheets, and instead, I took 30 minutes. And, so p I just I would I always just remember AI. So this in that in that case, I had the facts.

Michelle Rider [00:16:16]:

I had the you know, I had our own data that we had. I had some CMS data. I had some Medicare, Medicaid data. I had names of universities, and I had all of this information that were all factual individual and, was able to put that together and, presented it as if I had been spending weeks on it.

Sara Payne [00:16:39]:

Yeah. No. Such a great time saver. And I'm glad you provided that specific example. I'm curious. Was it Chat GPT or another tool that you used specifically on that project?

Michelle Rider [00:16:49]:

So I use, I use Chat GPT, but I also use Gemini. And I so what I I try to use different and it depends on what I'm doing. So if I'm writing, like if I'm doing content, I may, like, use a couple of different, different, tools, but, I use ChargebeeT. That's sort of my easiest and favorite for that.

Sara Payne [00:17:12]:

Sure. Yeah. No. I I always love to compare notes with people on what they're using and and sort of the latest because this is moving all so quickly. Right? And and, what they can do, their capabilities is is rapidly changing. I'm glad you brought up KPIs. So critically important, obviously. I read a recent Ad Age article that highlighted the increasing pressures that chief marketing officers are facing from their CEOs, from their CFOs to deliver quick, measurable results often with limited resources.

Sara Payne [00:17:46]:

Right? It's the classic pressure for a better, faster, cheaper new because I know. I know. You're absolutely right. I'm like, yep. Saw the headline. I'm like, yeah. We've been talking about this for for quite some time. But the interesting perspective that they brought in is, that performance marketing has really changed the way the marketing is perceived because it's like the point of view in the article was like, well, if this is called performance marketing, is this nonperformance marketing over here? You you know, like, if we're looking at digital and we're looking at metrics and we can see the definitive ROI, then is this not performing? And it's that whole juxtaposition of, you know, things like brand building and brand awareness and top of funnel stuff.

Sara Payne [00:18:32]:

It's a longer term play, and the c suite is having a harder time understanding that and continuing to see the value in it. And so you're right. It's not new, but I think there's sort of an additional trend that's that's at play here, which is this juxtaposition of of performance marketing, versus other in brand building, etcetera. What's your perspective on that on this subject of being bold? How can CMOs maintain a bold approach in light of these challenges, you know, and this expectation for better, faster, cheaper?

Michelle Rider [00:19:12]:

Yeah. That's all I mean, I feel like that's been, like, a career long, question. And so here's my tricks or the my perspective is one, I mean, marketers have to get used to I mean, performance marketing is not going away, and it's gonna continue. I would say with digital marketing, it's, a lot easier, I think, than most people think. And I also I also believe that in setting KPIs, it's important to, first of all, set them early, but also measure everything. So get credit for everything. So you're going to mix in the hard data. So how many, I don't know, how many, customers can you engage? How many people use the service? How many contracts did we sign with other health care organizations.

Michelle Rider [00:20:10]:

So that's the hard data. And those and some of those are long tail, but you can measure the in between to always demonstrate your value as a marketer. So the in betweens are,

Sara Payne [00:20:25]:

you

Michelle Rider [00:20:25]:

know so your traditional, like, reach, impressions, how much how, you know, website visits, how many people are downloading your content. And then what my take is that you get really good at measuring those in between insights, is what I call them, and then you get really good at measuring taking the outcome, the whatever that KPI is, and attributing it to the in between activities. Mhmm. And so then you're showing, here's the outcome, But in order for me to continue to be successful, I need to double down on these in between activities that I demonstrated, fed the outcome. Does that make sense? Yes. It it it works because then you also so when you're talking about budgeting and and, when you get to that point, you're like, okay. I know that doing, you know, customer webinars and display ads and, LinkedIn, targeted, targeted ads. I know that that combination results in why.

Michelle Rider [00:21:47]:

And so, therefore, my budget needs to double down on display ads, and I need to drive more people to the website by doing x, y, z. Oh, and I measured those. And last year, we did you know, we spent $10,000 on this. And so this year, in order to get, you know, the 2 x that you're asking for, I need to do more of these in between activities. So I measure I KPI everything. And then I really look for those opportunities to attribute growth, to attribute, outcomes to those what would be seen individually nonessential KPIs that, you know, a board or CEO care about.

Sara Payne [00:22:30]:

Yeah. I love that. This this overlay, right, or or layering effect of all of the different, you know, use you're calling it the in between insights in addition to the harder KPIs. And in drawing those those correlations, those attributions, when we do this, we see this. And if you want this times, you know, x amount, whatever it is, then I need this times x amount. Love that. And I think I think you're absolutely right in in, you know, all of us in in marketing can do a better job of exactly that. And I think sometimes the challenge is is that the the teams that are responsible for some of these things are siloed.

Sara Payne [00:23:13]:

And so it does take Yes. A strong CMO Mhmm. To provide this, vision and direction for how those KPIs are gonna be rolled up and so that the organization is in concert producing the right kind of metrics and insights that are gonna support that overall story that we wanna tell.

Michelle Rider [00:23:33]:

Yeah. Yeah. That it's right on. And I think, we spend a lot of time you're right with the silo, but we spend a lot of times with just the the the the outcome. Right? And so it's just my digital campaign, you know, drove 10 leads or you know, and it's just that piece. But the consumer, the going back to insights or the buyer or the patient or if you're b to b, the, you know, the the businesses that you're trying to attract as a health care organization, they are very complex. And a lot of times, there's multiple people involved in that process. So you if you're not measuring and so and their interaction with the company may come from, interaction with the call center.

Michelle Rider [00:24:20]:

It may come from interaction, you know, on-site. And so if you're not, like, measuring that and pulling that all in as a marketer, you're sort of do doing yourself a favor because you're also then not able to defend your marketing strategy because you're only able to defend the things that you've that you've showed as the outcome versus showing the whole story.

Sara Payne [00:24:43]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Great advice. As you and I have have talked in previous conversations, I know that you are someone who really believes in stretching marketing beyond that one campaign or that point in time, and this is something that you advise very heavily on in your board positions. Nice. What advice do you have specifically on this concept of stretching marketing beyond that one point in time?

Michelle Rider [00:25:07]:

Do it. No. But,

Sara Payne [00:25:10]:

love it. You heard it here, folks. Just do it.

Michelle Rider [00:25:13]:

Yeah. Like, every role that I have and every opportunity I do, I always do that. And you can do it. So I have this concept. I call it from 0 to 90. And, basically, it is so you have a marketing campaign or a strategy or something that you are launching. And then you think about it for in, like, in the next 90 days, Think about the target audience and the multiple ways that they will come into contact with you, your campaign, the the strategy that you're trying to employ. And then you will think about all of the different touch points.

Michelle Rider [00:25:58]:

And as you do that exercise and try not to think about it only in terms of what you can do, but in terms of what how they are going to interact with you. And then what I try to do is I say, okay. We're doing a webinar. We did a webinar on this day. So if I think about, like, the CIO, for example, and all of the different things that a CIO does, then I'll say, like, he golfs. He he goes to the movies. He has a family. Like, I think about all of the different things, not just a CIO at a health care company.

Sara Payne [00:26:30]:

Yeah.

Michelle Rider [00:26:31]:

And then I say, he also is import his reputation is important. I'm just thinking about a project I I just did. And I say, okay. So if I'm gonna invite the top CIOs, but instead of just doing this webinar, I'm going to invite them to provide quotes during the webinar and be on camera, and I'm gonna let them know that we're going to publish those quotes, and we're gonna promote them following the webinar. So are you okay with that? And they're good. Like, a CEO doesn't get a lot of, like, you know, media attention, so they're good with that. So oh, and, also, could we ask your PR team if we can mention you in a press release to see the stretch? Okay. Some are gonna say yes.

Michelle Rider [00:27:19]:

Also, we would love to do a blog because your take was really interesting. We'd like to do a blog on you during x x month, you know, something to give another re a point in time reason. And we're gonna publish that 2 months from now. Are you good with that? And would you mind mentioning the blog on your, your, you know, on your health at your health care site, or would your marketing team wanna also publish this blog on your wherever they publish? So the stretch. The stretch. And then we'd love to invite you back to talk to our customers next year about your insights because they were so impactful. The stretch. Would you like to invite any of your customers to come to that to the webinar when you come? Yes.

Michelle Rider [00:28:10]:

The stretch. So I just I just exhaust, and I just try and, like, campaigns. I hate campaigns that just are one and done because there's so much opportunity. So I just create all this content for that. And I didn't even think about it, but I keep going back to chat feed CBT. I should just, like, put all of that in and see what else what else

Sara Payne [00:28:29]:

Yeah. Say, what am I forgetting? What here's what we did. Here's what we started. Here's what we did. Help me stretch the season even further. What am I forgetting? I love that. So so great.

Michelle Rider [00:28:39]:

Like your engagement, I used the hue you apply to the human piece of it.

Sara Payne [00:28:45]:

Ego.

Michelle Rider [00:28:46]:

Ego. We

Sara Payne [00:28:47]:

all we all have we all have that. You know? And

Michelle Rider [00:28:50]:

And then there's, there's, like, nothing like like what you do, it's like I I'm sure you talk to a lot of marketers, but everybody has a slightly different take. So you are you're bringing it, like, the best insights that are individual to that person, but it hopefully gives gives someone else, you know, something that they can use. And that's what I do with our customers.

Sara Payne [00:29:12]:

Yeah. I think sometimes brands, companies are afraid to ask their customers to participate in some of these things because we you know, our customers are busy. Everybody's busy.

Michelle Rider [00:29:25]:

Right.

Sara Payne [00:29:25]:

I but I think sometimes we we're overlooking this this what's really in it for them. This isn't really about the brand.

Michelle Rider [00:29:36]:

Right.

Sara Payne [00:29:36]:

Right? It's about allowing them to be a champion, allowing them to be a thought leader and elevating their profile, and everybody loves that. And so really leading into that and not being afraid to, you know, approaching them in the right way, which is here's what's in it for you. Right. You're making it easy for them. Right. So many very rarely do people say no. I find in in what I do find that. People say no.

Sara Payne [00:30:02]:

And when they do say no, it's because it's because they've got some strict corporate, you know Exactly. Calls.

Michelle Rider [00:30:09]:

Right. Can't otherwise, people are like, yeah. Sure. I'd love to. Right. But and, you know, to your point, and it is because I because Amazon, I could, like, never just speak without, like, without asking PR. But the thing is, they'll also have individuals that have their own brand too. So there's other like, you can too mention that person that's under the strict, and you can they still have their own brand.

Michelle Rider [00:30:36]:

So you can still, like, call them out, and you don't necessarily have to associate it with their company. But when someone looks up that person of authority, they're gonna see where they work. And so then that just lends more credibility.

Sara Payne [00:30:49]:

I love that. I feel like this conversation has really, you know, come the the full spectrum of, you know, being bold can be new ideas and tenacity and being daring. But being bold can also be smaller things, which is don't don't, you know being scrappy, don't underutilize AI for analyzing your data and helping you present it in new and interesting, compelling ways to your c suite. And really this concept of the stretch. And, you know, really taking that to the the the limits of, you know, how do we stretch this so far? Is it going to break at some point? I don't think so. I think platform right?

Michelle Rider [00:31:32]:

So far is gonna break. I love it. That's exactly right.

Sara Payne [00:31:35]:

Well, before we conclude, I'd I'd like to switch gears for for a quick fire segment. I've got 4 questions for you, Michelle. First one is what's your favorite way to unwind after a long day?

Michelle Rider [00:31:47]:

That sound crazy. I love to cook, and I'd like to watch true, mysteries. So

Sara Payne [00:31:55]:

there are a lot of people out there who are in that camp with you.

Michelle Rider [00:32:00]:

I I love it.

Sara Payne [00:32:01]:

The true crime stuff. Yeah. Mhmm. Really hot. What's the what's the best piece of advice that you've ever received?

Michelle Rider [00:32:09]:

Okay. Here here it is. So it is, and it's a quote. And I don't know who the quote is from, but it's fake confidence looks like real confidence. So show up because no one knows the difference anyway.

Sara Payne [00:32:25]:

Love that. Everybody's everybody experiences imposter syndrome, even people at the top. And so it's the it's the old fake it till you make it. Mhmm. Love it. What advice would you give other women who are interested in serving on boards?

Michelle Rider [00:32:43]:

Oh, that yes. So I, so here's my little spell. So today, 30% of women are are in in corporate board roles, but only, 8% of them are, women of color. And there still is this long stretch in terms of getting on a board. So I would say for all women, for me, I think it's it's visibility. So being visible, being bold, being on LinkedIn, telling your story. It's showing up. So if you are interested in a board, and you know, like, the type of board you wanna be on, there are lots of ways to, to cons be considered.

Michelle Rider [00:33:31]:

So one is volunteering to be part of the advisory board, getting to know corporate board directors. If you have a particularly good relationship with a a CEO, letting that CEO know that you wanna be on board. Now a lot of us don't have we don't we don't know the CEO personally, but there's other ways. So following the companies and commenting on what the CEO says or what the corporate board director says, and then following up with your own content and your own brand. You will start to get noticed. And I I I implore everyone to, you know, consider being on a board. It's an honor to help govern companies.

Sara Payne [00:34:17]:

I love that. Yeah. We've got to get those representation numbers up. The 30% has to go up. The 8% has to go up. And I love what you said about we sometimes we gotta ask. Right? We might not always have the we might not always have the connections, but you know what? Somebody does. And so the more we make it known that that's what our interest is, people are always I find people are willing to help people.

Sara Payne [00:34:40]:

They're not you know what I mean? They're they're gonna do what they can to help you out, and they're gonna expect the same in return. And so that's gonna get out there into the world. The more asks we make, the more it's gonna get out there into the world.

Michelle Rider [00:34:53]:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Sara Payne [00:34:54]:

Last question, Michelle. What does professional development look like for you these days?

Michelle Rider [00:34:59]:

For me, it's podcast and podcast podcast podcast. I and and so, like, right now, I'm you know, I have had a lot of leadership roles. But, right now, for me, my quest is to be on a corporate board. So I'm spending a lot of time doing, corporate board governance training. I was recently named, I think you said this, one of the top 50 women to watch for 50, 58 women on boards for corporate boards. So my development is all around becoming board ready. But in doing that and even just, as a marketer in that craft, there is just so much to learn every day. And every day, there are great podcasts like yours that people can listen to, and you always get a nugget.

Michelle Rider [00:35:53]:

You get some nugget by just, like, listening to other people. And so, I would recommend, you know, finding great podcasts, always learning, always focus on your professional development. You know, take that course. Take that chance because you never know where that's gonna lead you.

Sara Payne [00:36:15]:

Love that. Do you have any favorite podcasts, that you would recommend to others aside from the true crime ones, of course, but more in the marketing leadership, space?

Michelle Rider [00:36:25]:

Okay. So a couple are, social media marketing. It's like this quick 5 minute. Always gives you, like, the latest tools. So you were asking me about, like, AI models and, different, models that you can use. So it's really great at giving those type of tools. So I learned about Iterable from that podcast, and that's a great, CRM tool. I also like a podcast called the c suite.

Michelle Rider [00:36:52]:

And so it really gives that perspective from, like, the, the the c suite sort of to the expectations of being in the c c suite and how to succeed. And then there's another one called 5 Minute Marketing, which I really like because that's good for walks, and I usually only have about 5 minutes to listen to anything. But those are some of my favorites.

Sara Payne [00:37:17]:

Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing. I'll have to check some of those out. Those a couple of those are are new for me. Well, Michelle, I really appreciate you being here today, and I wanted to put a little plug out there. Anybody who's looking for a new board member, contact Michelle. And to that point, Michelle, how can listeners get in contact with you, Michelle?

Michelle Rider [00:37:36]:

Oh, very easy. They can, go they can find me on LinkedIn. I I answer all of my LinkedIn messages. So it's Michelle j Rider. Also, my email is ridermichelle@gmail.com.

Sara Payne [00:37:51]:

Love it. Well, thank you so much, folks. Be sure to to reach out to Michelle. Follow her on LinkedIn. And if you enjoyed the conversation today, do us a favor and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. That's it for today. Thanks to all of you for being part of the health marketing collective where strong leadership meets marketing excellence because the future of health care depends on it. We're looking forward to seeing you in Las Vegas next week.

Sara Payne [00:38:14]:

Take care, everybody.