The Ultimate Marketing Playbook: Corporate Strategy Meets Start-Up Agility

Sara Payne [00:00:10]:

Hello, everyone. And welcome to the Health Marketing Collective, where strong leadership meets marketing excellence. I'm your host, Sara Payne, a health marketing strategist at Inprela Communications, and I'm bringing you fascinating conversations with some of the industry's top marketing minds. Today's episode is all about blending the best of both worlds, corporate strategy and start up agility. Some of the most successful marketing leaders know that achieving a balance between the structured approach of a large corporation and the nimble innovative spirit of startups is key. Our guest today has navigated both environments and is here to share her unique perspective on what it takes to succeed in any marketing landscape. We'll explore strategies for maintaining agility and how to foster innovation regardless of your organization's size. Our guest is Heather Cmiel.

Sara Payne [00:01:02]:

She's an award winning marketing and communications professional with a proven track record of driving business results. She currently serves as the vice president of brand and communications at Aidoc, a startup that's revolutionizing health care by seamlessly integrating AI to deliver critical insights exactly when and where they're exactly when and where they're needed for a smarter, and she's no stranger to the health industry. Before joining Aidoc, Heather was a Marcom leader for the medical solutions division at 3 m Healthcare. She's also an accredited member of the Public Relations Society of America and past president of the Minnesota chapter of the PRSA, and she holds her master's in communication from Purdue University. I'm thrilled to have you with me on the show today. Heather, welcome.

Heather Cmiel [00:01:47]:

Thanks so much, Sara. Glad to be here.

Sara Payne [00:01:49]:

Yeah. So happy to have you. I think this is such an important topic. I think a lot of organizations would love to be able to blend sort of the best of of both worlds, right, the the corporate strategy and the, innovation and nimbleness of of a startup. Can you start, Heather, by sharing a little bit about your background and your experiences in both of these environments?

Heather Cmiel [00:02:14]:

Yeah. Absolutely. I started on the agency side of the world, actually, which I think gave me a really interesting foundation. You talk about being really nimble. As you know, agency requires that agility. It requires that flexibility. And I think, you know, growing up, if you will, in agency, both, small small boutique owned agencies as well as, larger global agencies really gave me the the ability to jump and pivot and flex into different areas. You know, the agency world, though, I think can take its toll on on people, and I sought a new challenge which brought me not not only into corporate, but into corporate being 3 m.

Heather Cmiel [00:02:55]:

Right? It's, a massive company. When I joined, health care was one of their larger divisions, and coming in to that organization was interesting because I definitely had a preconceived notion of of corporate walking in. Some of those things are valid, and some of those things were, definitely challenged. I I I had a very different perspective going into corporate, going out of corporate, and then that took me to where I am today, which is Aidoc. You know, walking into a very mature startup, you know, startups can fluctuate on a lot of different, levels. And I was talking to a friend before I took the role at Aidoc, and she was also at a start up. And she was giving me some advice, and she's like, you know, you have to wear a lot of hats, and it's it's a lot of roll up your sleeves, and that's true. But her start up was 12 people, still in very early funding rounds, whereas Aidoc was very well established with 400 people, series d funding, and definitely on its way to becoming much more of a a midsized organization.

Sara Payne [00:03:55]:

Yeah. You bring up a good point. Right? Because even inside of corporate and inside of startup, there's different degrees of of what that means. Right? You can be multibillion dollar, corporation or, you know, a smaller corporation, same thing to be to to be set of of startups as well. I'm curious, Heather, you mentioned that when you joined the corporate environment, you had some preconceived notions. And, some of those things were true, and some of those things you said your perspectives were were challenged. What were some of those things that changed or or didn't pan out to be true once you were in that environment?

Heather Cmiel [00:04:36]:

Yeah. I mean, I think what was really interesting to me is I definitely had the perception of slow moving, and I had the perception of very bureaucratic. And I think those things are true, but I think it also depends who's driving the bus. And when I joined, corporate very early on, when someone told me I couldn't do something, I would ask 3 different questions. Number 1, was this an FDA rule? Right? If this is an FDA sort of territory, we're gonna be more cognizant of it. Is this, a legal concern? You know? Is this about risk mitigation for the company? If so, that means there could be some latitude. You know, I've worked with really great legal and regulatory teams who have a philosophy of guardrails, not roadblocks. And so, you know, when when they're bringing up opposition, maybe there's workarounds and ways to adjust.

Heather Cmiel [00:05:29]:

Or is this just someone's opinion? And I think the one thing you do find in corporate is a lot of tenured individuals who've been there a long time, who are like, this is how we this is how we do it. And so I I knew walking in that there would be some of that. I think what surprised me is how much of an appetite there was for change, how much of an appetite there was for speed, and different thinking. I walked into a really gray undefined role, and I got to shape it, and I got to build it. And I think that luxury enabled me to change the way things were done. I also think while you're working in a gigantic organization, there are a lot of parallel parallels to working, like, on an agency team. Right? I at one point, I worked for Weber Shandwick. It's a huge organization, but I worked with the same people on account teams day in and day out.

Heather Cmiel [00:06:22]:

And, you know, corporations' not that different. I worked with very, similar team members day to day. We formed really incredible bonds, built a really awesome culture, but you have the ability to tap into these other resources as needed, which was very evident when I was leading some work during COVID, and how important that having those levers to pull can ultimately really be.

Sara Payne [00:06:46]:

I really love the point you made, Heather, about the in particular, the three questions that you asked when you came into a larger corporation. Right? I think that's that's fantastic advice that others can apply as well. What other lessons did you learn that you believe would be beneficial for other marketing leaders?

Heather Cmiel [00:07:03]:

I think particularly when navigating a larger organization, there's a lot of truth to what's in your job jar. I was taught that by a great, partner I worked with at 3 m, and I think there's a lot of truth to that. I think a lot of times, particularly in the absence of clear roles and responsibilities, you can run into a situation where everybody's overstepping. Overstepping creates territory grabs. Overstepping can create a lot of chaos. And so what's in your lane, and how do you also work with people to continue to steer them into their lanes? Because I think where where slowdowns happen and bureaucracy happens is everybody's overstepping. And, right, I would never walk into the lab and say, hand me some beakers. It's the It's the same with the communications discipline, but it's not always given the same respect.

Heather Cmiel [00:08:01]:

Right? Because we're all writing. We're all communicating. We're talking in meetings, but communications is a learned skill. There's science behind communications. And so I often found, particularly in my function, a lot of overstepping because everybody communicates. So everybody has opinions in regard to that world. Also with marketing, I think there's a lot of parallels. But I think steering people into their subject matter expertise can help really navigate some choppy waters.

Sara Payne [00:08:31]:

Yeah. Amen to that. I mean, I'm sure so many listeners can relate to this. Everybody thinks they're good at marketing. Right? Everybody has an opinion about marketing. Everybody thinks they're a good writer. We all know that that's not necessarily true. Right? What we do is

Heather Cmiel [00:08:45]:

in marketing. Right? Like, that's part of it. We're all concerned, and we have opinions on what works and what doesn't. We are farther removed from things like science. Like, we might be consumers of the science, but we don't we don't have that direct connection as much as we do to being consumers of marketing because we're seeing it every day in everything that we touch.

Sara Payne [00:09:07]:

So after spending a few years at 3 m and then moving on to more of a startup environment, What do you see as, you know, how can marketing leaders really leverage the strengths of both of those environments in in in terms of driving their marketing strategies and achieving marketing success?

Heather Cmiel [00:09:28]:

Yeah. I think the point of innovation is something both the previous organization I was at and where I'm at today are are things they do really well. And I think a huge lesson I have learned over my career is innovation can come from anywhere. And so you need to be open to thinking and you need to be open to perspectives and opinions, You know? And I think it goes across all different types of disciplines when you're creating something. Right? You as a marketer might not be in the lab, but you understand what what the market is doing and what the market cares about and what the market is communicating. And so those types of things become really important in discussions. I also think you have to be unafraid to speak up. I, you know, I I think a lot of times, marketers, when they're in a room with lots of different subject matter experts, sometimes don't necessarily bring a strong voice because they're the marketer.

Heather Cmiel [00:10:28]:

Right? Like, they're they're once the product's been innovated, once everything's been figured out, once once the pricing's been set, like, then they come in and they bring the story to life. But I think being in at the ground level is so important. I remember when I first joined 3 m, it was really interesting to me because I came from the agency world. Right? And I heard, a perspective that agencies were a waste of time and money, and I found that to be really interesting. And I said, unpack that for me a bit more. And what I came to learn was the agency wasn't delivering because they didn't have the access to the information that they needed. Mhmm. Right? If they they were in the midst of creating creative for a launch, and I said, did they talk to the scientists? Did they get in on the VOC? Did they dive into all the ins and outs of how this product came to be? Why would they need that? Well, they need the full story to understand why this exists.

Heather Cmiel [00:11:27]:

What problem are we ultimately selling that we solve? And so, you know, I think the biggest lesson I've learned is ask questions, raise your voice, and collaborate with people across the organization. Some of the best partnerships I had were not with the product marketers at 3 m. It was with the scientists. It was with the technical service people who were ultimately clinicians that were training at the bedside. At Aidoc, it's very similar. I have very close partnerships with my marketing peers, but I'm also forging relationships with our innovation. We have an AI innovation team, and they're going in and educating about just the ever changing landscape of AI. We have, a workflow transformation team.

Heather Cmiel [00:12:10]:

They are standing at the bedside showing clinicians how to bring AI into their workflows. Like, this is where a lot of the information, sits and resides. And I think those things become so important to the work that that we do. I'm a adjunct professor at the University of St. Thomas, and I teach a master's class, about reputation management and brand strategy, but the class is really tailored to MBAs. And so a lot of times in that class are not marketers. It is r and d leaders. It is financial leaders.

Heather Cmiel [00:12:44]:

It is sales leaders. And we talk a lot about storytelling. And it's so interesting to me about how many of them think they don't play a role in storytelling because they're not in the marketing function. They're not in the comms function, but they are the the door opener to all the information. And so this is where I look to our marketing teams and our our communication teams about how are you opening those doors to all those other functions to help build build stories, build, effective marketing campaigns, and build things that will actually motivate audiences.

Sara Payne [00:13:16]:

This is such a profound point, Heather, because I think you touched on something that that transcends even the topic that we're focused on today. Right? Like, I think the most successful brands, the most successful narratives, the most successful marketing leaders are those that can get closest to the narrative, to the story. Right? To your point, it's the bedside. Right? It is who's interacting with the customer? What is that experience like? Why is this important? And what is their perspective on the world? What problems are we helping solve? And how do people actually talk about that in in real terms, in a way that they can understand? And I think that's such a profound point because it not only leads to success for marketing leaders like yourself, but for your team members, and also for your agency partners. Right? Everybody can be better at their jobs, in their roles, within marketing when they can get closest to that. And so I think that's such an important point for anybody listening out there.

Heather Cmiel [00:14:20]:

And it breaks down the walls. Right? Like, it breaks down the walls. It breaks down these connections. When you talk about bureaucratic slow moving organizations, part of it is because those partnerships have not been formed. Those relationships have not been fostered inside an organization. And those things are hard, right, because those things can take time to build. But once you have them established and then you have the rules of the road of who owns decision rights for specific things, then things move quickly because you've you've laid this foundation. And it benefits internal, and it benefits the work product that you're trying to deliver on.

Sara Payne [00:14:59]:

Absolutely. You brought up the term bureaucratic, and I I I wanted to go there. Labels like that often become excuses. Right? And and, you know, what's your take on that? How how can leaders in inside of these supposedly bureaucratic organizations really sort of break free from that mindset? And you've already shared some, you know, fantastic advice and lessons that you've learned. Anything else in terms of not letting a label like bureaucratic hold us back? Yeah.

Heather Cmiel [00:15:28]:

I think those labels become excuses. Now granted, there's going to be certain things that that are just gonna move slower, particularly when you're talking about, you know, medical technologies that are impacting people's lives. And you do have to challenge and you do have to make sure that things are thought through and that there's not vulnerabilities because because of who the end consumer, the ultimate consumer is of these these technologies and these solutions. But I think a lot of times I was told early in my career I wouldn't fit in in corporate. I found that really fascinating because I was I was a risk taker. I challenged convention. I was outspoken. I, asked questions, and I was told those things are not like, that doesn't fit the corporate mold.

Heather Cmiel [00:16:20]:

And I found that when I walked in through them to not be accurate at all. Like, I was embraced for who I was. You know? I was, asked for my opinions. I was hired for a specific reason. I was reminded of that reason every single day of why I was hired, And I think a lot of these labels that companies get are because you don't I think it it comes back to individuals that aren't willing to push or that aren't willing to challenge or that aren't willing to fight for what's right. It is tiring. It is exhausting to push. It is exhausting to build relationships, but it also is so important.

Heather Cmiel [00:17:00]:

And so, you know, I think it all comes down to individuals.

Sara Payne [00:17:05]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And, boy, you sure proved them wrong too, didn't you?

Heather Cmiel [00:17:10]:

I, I had a wild time at Theram. It was such a fulfilling part of my career. Like, you know, I always joke I'd never go to 3 m because my father was a 3 m er for 30 years. And I said, nope. Never gonna go to 3 m, and he found it real interesting that I that I went there. And it was such I learned so much about business strategy working at that company, so much about innovation, and so much about collaboration. Because in the agency, you're surrounded by like minded people, meaning you all get what you do. Right? We all understand the challenges of marketing.

Heather Cmiel [00:17:44]:

We understand the challenges of communication. We understand brand. Even if we have different opinions of how we come at it, we we have a lot of empathy for each other because we get each other's worlds. You walk into a corporation, and you are now surrounded by so much different expertise, which is amazing. It is amazing, and it really taught me a lot about honing and building a story and the importance of how you guide your agency partners and the importance of the role that you play inside an organization and that bridge and that connector.

Sara Payne [00:18:21]:

Well, maybe, Heather, it it's true that more large corporations need to look for different need to look for more people that come from a slightly different background from an agency perspective that have more of that, you know, risk taking approach. Let's talk a little bit, Heather, about, resource allocation. You know, corporations might have more resources, but, you know, what's your experience in terms of being able to do some pretty amazing things regardless of the size of the organization that you're in?

Heather Cmiel [00:18:59]:

Yeah. I mean, everybody's got a budget. Right? I think there is definitely a sum an assumption when I was at 3 m that we work for this Fortune 250 company. You must have really, really deep pockets. That was not always the case. You know, I think I think organizations are getting smarter in what they invest in. I think they're getting smarter in investments externally as well as investments from an internal perspective. It has been amazing to me what we have been able to do at Aidoc with a very small team of extremely talented individuals.

Heather Cmiel [00:19:35]:

We have an in house designer, and we partner with more of a production design type organization that basically expands our design capabilities, threefold. But it it is amazing. I mean, last year, my team of there's 6 of us, including myself. We produced 285 pieces of content last year, and all of it was based on a strategy and a plan and also thinking about how do we squeeze as much juice out of everything that we create as possible. Because we're sitting in a world for for my world today that is really complicated. AI is the word of the moment, and it is so extremely complicated. And everybody's saying they do AI. Organizations are getting pressured to bring on AI strategies, but not understanding, like, how do we do that? How do we discern different types of AI? So education becomes a really important focus for us as an organization and us as a subject matter expert.

Heather Cmiel [00:20:36]:

And so when I think about how do we do more with less, I'm looking at what what skills do I have on my team? How do I make sure that those skills are that the work that we're doing are aligned to those specific experts, and how do we put a plan in place that we work against. And we don't ever create anything for a single use because I think that's where organizations fall down is, like, you create it, you put it out there, you throw it away. Everything we use is squeezed as much as possible because it just helps with consistency of message. It helps make us a lot more efficient from a, organizational standpoint. It enables us to produce faster because we're we're working off existing basis of things, and it helps us stretch our budget in ways that are more strategic. Like, in previous roles, my budget was more used to expand capacity. I have created more of a team inside this organization that is really about creating. So I am and I think organizations, I'm seeing this kind of in a as a trend.

Heather Cmiel [00:21:42]:

I don't know if you're seeing this from a hiring standpoint. There is a desire to hire more people who can think and do simultaneously.

Sara Payne [00:21:49]:

Yes.

Heather Cmiel [00:21:50]:

Not just think, not just do, but being able to blend both of those skills together. And I have a a pretty robust team of thinkers and doers, and I think that enables us to maximize output as much as possible.

Sara Payne [00:22:03]:

Yeah. Wow. You guys have achieved some pretty impressive things there for sure, and you talked about, you know, not doing anything solo, one and done. I I that's a strategy other than just needs to die. Right? Like anybody out there who's doing the one and done and not repurposing and and maximizing the most out of your content, you need to rethink your marketing content, you need to rethink your marketing strategy. 100%. And I'm super lucky to have a marketing leader

Heather Cmiel [00:22:30]:

who gives me a lot of autonomy, pushes me in the right ways, and really helps kind of steer organizationally what we're trying to do, and she also is helping connect a lot of dots across the organization to make sure that there's more collaboration happening because how how nobody's got the time to just do something in a vacuum for a onetime use. Right? Like, that's not effective for anybody. You need to be maximizing your outputs as much as possible.

Sara Payne [00:22:58]:

Let's talk about speed and agility. I mean, I think I have to imagine one of the things that you're you're fortunate to have where you're at is is an ability to move relatively quick. Right? You've got a tight team of really talented people. You can move things pretty quickly. You've probably got the right understanding of what buy in you need in order to move. What was your experience with that? You know, this agility, this nimbleness, and speed marketing, you know, today with social media and other things, so much of it is very much real time. Right? A trend happens that you as a brand need to be commenting on, and and it's a blink of an eye. You either jump on it or you miss that opportunity.

Sara Payne [00:23:37]:

How did you sort of deal with that or manage against that in sort of inside of a or an organization that maybe moved a bit slower?

Heather Cmiel [00:23:46]:

Yeah. It's, I mean, I will say the pace as big corporate versus the pace I'm working at now. Like, I thought I produced a lot in big corporate. It is insane to me how much is happening within, my current environment. And I I attribute it back to a couple different things. I attribute it back to decision rights. Right? You know, they it's one thing I will seek opinions and perspectives, but I'm also like, and we're done now. Like, we need to just make a decision and move on.

Heather Cmiel [00:24:18]:

Right? And that's hard. That is hard to do with leaders. It is very hard to do. But establishing decision rights at you know, when I'm asking someone to review something, putting them in a very specific lane. Hey. I'd like you to review for a, b, c. This is where I need your expertise is on a, b, c. I also do think I am I will be the first to admit I am not the best at process, but process can be very advantageous in certain regards.

Heather Cmiel [00:24:49]:

Right? We work in a regulated industry. I have to make sure that regulatory gets their eyes on things, you know, that we're protecting the company when we're using certain things. But, like, how do we put specific processes in place? A a group of messages that we can always work from. How do we build claim sheets so we're allied aligned on information and data? How do we make sure that it's, we've aligned on everything in the up front when these things are being created to expedite things on the back end? Like, how do we operate in a no surprises mentality? I think all of those things definitely, help in driving speed and efficiency. But I also think you have to put you have to push. You have to push. Yes. And I am not good at, like, sitting back and, just, like, waiting for things to happen, and I don't think you can in a start up.

Heather Cmiel [00:25:40]:

Like, I think the the reason people go to smaller organizations is to have the opportunity to build, to shape something, to create. You know, it it's no no secret if you paid if you've paid attention to the external media environment with 3 m, it's gone through a lot of changes. A lot of changes. And I found that those changes definitely stymie the ability to move, the ability to create, the ability to, move to to build things, and that's a huge reason I wanted to transition is because I missed that. I missed shaping something, taking that piece of clay and actually shaping something with the team. And, but it's it's definitely hard work. Right? It's it requires hunting people down, having conversations. You know? It requires you saying no to possibly your CEO and and putting a rationale.

Heather Cmiel [00:26:37]:

Like, I don't agree with this, and this is why. And building those, respected relationships are so important. Again, going back to a strong leader, my CMO is amazing. She is in a phenomenal relationship with our CEO. And when I need her to come in and help me out, she is there and ready to have a conversation so we can get unstuck and just move forward.

Sara Payne [00:27:01]:

I love that. And, you know, obviously, it takes the 2 of you sort of understanding those dynamics and and you knowing when when to pull her in, right, for that. 2 really great pieces of advice you you offered in in what you said there. 1, don't be afraid to push. Right? Don't be afraid to push back on the organization. Don't be afraid to say no. Don't be afraid to push to get what you need to be successful. And the other one was process, which I think is really great.

Sara Payne [00:27:24]:

Process can be a 4 letter word. Right? But it sounds like you have sort of perfected having come from and spent time in both environments, really sort of perfected what is the right level of process, that process for the sake of process or, you know, creating 30 unnecessary steps to get something done, but needing to have process to actually help things move. Right? So that the organization, to the benefit of it benefits your team and your department to to see things through, to see things get done because the organization has agreed, yes. We will, you know, we'll follow this process to get these things done.

Heather Cmiel [00:27:59]:

Yeah. The process piece is huge, and it's 1. You're absolutely right. Like, I came from an overprocessed organization to an organization that was not necessarily as process oriented. We have to find some sort of happy medium, particularly as we scale. Right? The marketing organization when I walked in here was, very small. I mean, my team at the time was 2 people. Wow.

Heather Cmiel [00:28:23]:

And, you know, we've continued to scale up in between our marketers, and then we have a, sales development organization that sits under marketing. I mean, our marketing organization's 40 plus people. That's a lot of growth, and I've only been at Aidoc 2 years. And the scale is amazing, but with scale comes more complexity. Right? With more people, it becomes more challenging, which is why these processes can help manage some of that swirl and some of that crazy.

Sara Payne [00:28:53]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Well, Heather, I'd like to switch gears here for for a quick fire before we conclude the episode today. I've got 4 questions for you. Alright. We've gotta talk about AI. You're at an AI company. We've got to talk about it.

Sara Payne [00:29:08]:

So give listeners a couple of quick examples of valuable ways that you're tapping into to generative AI in your day to day work within your marketing team today?

Heather Cmiel [00:29:20]:

You know, I I think it's so fascinating to navigate this AI world and watch sort of the perspectives and opinions of people, particularly in the communications and marketing realm around AI. I think it is true generative AI is it's tremendously helpful if used in the right ways. I have observed things where people use chat gpt, and they cut and paste, and they think that's done. Right, I work a 100% remote. I find chat gpt to be an amazing brainstorm partner to me to, like, think things through, help me reframe things, like, you know, just be an idea engine to just, like, get my brain working in a different way. I think you you have to use it as a partner. Like, right, when we talk about our company, we're about aiding physicians with AI. We are not about replacing physicians with AI, and I think you have to think about it in the same sort of regard.

Heather Cmiel [00:30:18]:

Like, AI is not leaving. I think it will, though, quickly, remove marketers and communicators who are not willing to use it because it can increase your capacity to create. It can help you think of things that you weren't considering. It can be a brainstorming engine. Where things get really dangerous is how it how if you're starting to cut and paste, and you're starting to just, like, take and lift those things. And I know there's a lot of discussions right now around copyright and who owns what, and so you have to be really cognizant and aware, but I think it can be a tremendously powerful tool if you're using it in a thinking, brainstorming capacity.

Sara Payne [00:30:57]:

Absolutely. I agree with you on all fronts. What's more important to you, Heather? Short term results or long term investment in the brand?

Heather Cmiel [00:31:04]:

Oh, that's such a tricky one.

Sara Payne [00:31:06]:

I know. Trick question.

Heather Cmiel [00:31:08]:

For me, where we're at right now is long term investment in the brand because I feel like it's other team's responsibilities to produce short term results and really build that pipeline. For me, brand investment, though, right, building that brand, it takes a bit. But once you have that established brand, it can accelerate things even faster. But brand building is a long tail strategy, and it is a strategy that is not for the faint of heart and does not happen overnight and requires resilience and discipline, but I think it pays off in spades in the long run.

Sara Payne [00:31:44]:

Yes. I agree with you so much. Brand leaders unite. Right? It's the long term investment in the brand definitely needed.

Heather Cmiel [00:31:51]:

And it's not just your logo. Correct. Which is so many people think.

Sara Payne [00:31:59]:

How do you stay current, Heather, on trends and your own professional development? Do you have some go to resources that you turn to to help you stay current?

Heather Cmiel [00:32:08]:

Yeah. I mean, I I'm a consumer of information, so I I think though LinkedIn can sometimes be a little bit like high school, virtual high school, I do think there's a lot of information you can still find. I'm an, avid avid subscriber of the Harvard Business Review. I think the Harvard Business Review, gives great purviews into into marketing, and into business strategy. I also am very fortunate to be surrounded by lots of amazing professionals who I can think with, can go out for a beverage with, and have conversations. I mean, I I remember when I joined through m, I did a lot of that, a lot of, is this normal? Has this happened to you? Because I worked I had friends that worked at big major companies in the Twin Cities, and it was helpful to just, like Yeah. Have sounding boards.

Sara Payne [00:32:57]:

Yeah. To feel seen and heard. Yeah. Learn from

Heather Cmiel [00:33:00]:

And to, like, pressure test stuff. Like, am I coming at this wrong? Should I be thinking about this differently?

Sara Payne [00:33:06]:

Yeah. I love that. I love that sort of embracing that, always learning. And, I mean, that's really sort of how we landed on on the title for this this podcast series as well, the collective, is I think we're all in this together, and we can share a lot of wisdom from, you know, being in the trenches and all the different experiences that we've all had. Last question. What's the best podcast episode or book on either leadership or marketing that you've consumed recently?

Heather Cmiel [00:33:31]:

I really like Todd Henry, and he has a a podcast called The Daily Creative. And they're really short episodes, but he talks about how do you continue to be a creative engine in your organization, and ways to sort of unleash creative strategy because creativity can become really stymied, really flat. It can be really hard and exhausting to always be the creative one in an organization. I mean, I think creativity sits everywhere, but I think often marketing and communications people are looked at at being the creative engine. And so that's a really helpful podcast in just understanding, like, how you can unleash creativity. A lot of the things that he's done have been fantastic in just how to how to just create and hone a more creative muscle in your brain.

Sara Payne [00:34:21]:

Love that. I actually haven't listened to that one, so I'm definitely gonna flag this and and check that out. Because you're right. Creativity is so important in everything that we do today.

Heather Cmiel [00:34:30]:

I also think it's important to not always consume marketing and be patient because I think creativity can come from all sorts of places. You know, I'm a big listener to Smartlist. I think Smartlist is just such a fascinating journey that has started. But listening to all of these different people who live in the creative arts world and sort of where they find inspiration, how they think. I mean, I think you can find ideas anywhere, and I think it's really important too to find things that kinda light your fire and enable you to feel a connection and and drive inspiration.

Sara Payne [00:35:06]:

And there are people in this world that are just born storytellers. Right? And I think looking at a series like Smartlist is a great example to surround yourself and listen to how people tell stories, right, and are fascinating is just incredibly valuable for those of us who who are in marketing and and tell stories for brands because you want your content to attract people emotionally. Right? And I think that we can find great storytellers from all different industries.

Heather Cmiel [00:35:37]:

Yeah. I mean, right, look at the absolute huge consumption of murder mystery podcast. Like, there's a reason those are so highly consumed. It's a great story. Like, ultimately, that is what we're trying to do. I firmly believe we're more effective when we don't try to sell stuff. We actually just try to tell stories. And, I mean, I think if you looked at the similarities between effective marketing and murder mystery podcast, you're gonna find a lot of parallels in how things

Sara Payne [00:36:05]:

are changing. Something there. That might you might have just coined your first book, Heather. It might be how to create a cliffhanger brand. I don't know. Maybe that's already a book out there, but you could thank me later for that one. Well, Heather, this was really fun. I feel like we could go on all day.

Sara Payne [00:36:23]:

Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

Heather Cmiel [00:36:26]:

Yeah. Thanks so much, Sara. Really appreciate the conversation.

Sara Payne [00:36:29]:

How can listeners get in touch with you?

Heather Cmiel [00:36:31]:

So you can find me on LinkedIn. That's probably the best place. I also have if you live in Minnesota and like restaurants on the east side of the city, I have a very nerdy hobby of talking about the east metro restaurants. So you can find me on eastsideeatsmn as well if you want the food content. But LinkedIn is always the

Sara Payne [00:36:50]:

best way

Heather Cmiel [00:36:50]:

if you wanna talk

Sara Payne [00:36:51]:

about it. Be sure to check that out. Heather's a foodie. She's especially if you live in the Twin Cities, she's got a lot of great restaurant recommendations. So be sure to follow Heather on LinkedIn and check out her foodie content as well. And if you enjoy the conversation today, do us a favor and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for being part of the Health Marketing Collective where strong leadership meets marketing excellence because the future of health care depends on it. We'll see you next time.